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 Does God Need Us to Defend Him?

I recently read the discussion about C.S. Lewis which reminded me of a discussion I had with a few brethren over coffee.

As an unbeliever, I wresteled for over ten years trying to fit what scientists observed about the world with what I'd read in the Bible. A philosophy major, I had taken courses in Earth Sciences and had a basic understanding of geology.

On the one hand, I had a very hard time believing tens of thousands of geologists around the globe were all part of a mass conspiracy to undermine the Bible. On the other, I couldn't believe the God of Truth would lead us to believe the universe was only six thousand years old when the evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

Ditto for "evolution" and the changes that appear in the fossil record around the world. I've found trilobite fossils thousands of feet up in the Rockies. I've seen neanderthal and tyrannasaurus bones. Again, I doubted that tens of thousands of paleontologists were in on the same hoax.

I had read Thomas Aquinas, C.S. Lewis, Thomas A Kempis and other "apologists", even visited some websites that claimed to solve the discrepancy that seemed to exist between science and religion (like [url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/]Answers in Genesis[/url]) but I found them neither convincing nor truthful.

After intellectually wrangling with the scientific/religious problem for years, I listened to a sermon by A.W. Tozer late one night. I believe it was "The Holy Spirit and Why Some Can't Recieve Him" - I was convicted immediately and crying on the kitchen floor. Converted by a dead man. I believed.

I listened to a few more of his sermons and recall him saying during a sermon on Revelation (about the locusts, etc) that he refused to preach about things he couldn't identify. He simply said something along the line of "I don't know exactly what they are, but because the bible says they're coming, they're coming." I admired his sincerity and humility in admitting he didn't have answers for everything. I also believe him. They are coming.

Now, considering my attempts to syncronize science and religion failed and it took the humble words of an old preacher, now dead for some forty-odd years, to help me "knock" and recieve the Holy Spirit...

My questions, concerning apologists and apologetics, are...

[b]Does God need our arguments to defend Him?

Should we be scrambling to formulate worldly arguments to convict the world of spiritual issues?[/b]

 2007/3/17 23:03
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re: Does God Need Us to Defend Him?

Brother, this is good question.

My heart is rejoicing reading this testimony:

Quote:
After intellectually wrangling with the scientific/religious problem for years, I listened to a sermon by A.W. Tozer late one night. I believe it was "The Holy Spirit and Why Some Can't Recieve Him" - I was convicted immediately and crying on the kitchen floor. Converted by a [b]dead man.[/b] I believed.



I cannot ignore the science apologetics efforts through the years, and probably there are results from that.

But I believe with all my heart that it is about the heart, not the head. The lost men need divine touch from heaven. There is a sin in men's heart that must be dealt with. It is on a spiritual level, deeper in the soul. I believe there is a cry out there for a Savior though this cry it is with words, but deep cry from souls, undying souls.

I praise God for your testimony brother.


Greetings,
Kire

 2007/3/17 23:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But I believe with all my heart that it is about the heart, not the head. The lost men need divine touch from heaven. There is a sin in men's heart that must be dealt with. It is on a spiritual level, deeper in the soul. I believe there is a cry out there for a Savior though this cry it is with words, but deep cry from souls, undying souls.



Amen!

 2007/3/18 2:22
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re: Does God Need Us to Defend Him?

Corey,
I would like to ask you a question now that you have come to the LORD. What is your take on the theory of orgins?

Quote:
Should we be scrambling to formulate worldly arguments to convict the world of spiritual issues?



Here is a quote from Ravi Zacharias which in my mind could be one answer to your question:
Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart we are not really battling intellectual ideas as much as fighting for the right of our sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences? ~Ravi Zacharias, Lessons from the Battle of Ideas, 11-21

Your testimony blessed me...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/3/19 0:10Profile









 Re:

ginnyrose said

Quote:
I would like to ask you a question now that you have come to the LORD. What is your take on the theory of orgins?



In a nutshell?

I know the Holy Ghost, and thusly, Jesus, experientially. I no longer just hope or believe; I know.

I know there is a God beyond the sphere of direct observation, and that He created the universe. I am experientially aware of the presence of His Holy Spirit. And the Bible tells me He made the world in six days.

I know I've seen trilobites in the Rockies and Dinosaur bones in the badlands - I've seen photos of a neandertal family's bones. I've taken earth sciences courses, and known both geologists and paleontologists, and, like I said in my previous post, don't think the tens (or hundreds) of thousands of scientists are all lying about what they're collectively seeing in the observable universe.

To try to rectify, or syncronize, what the Bible tells me with what the scientists tell me, and what creationists tell me, has simply produced a kind of "cognitive dissonance" - and I've adopted Ezikiel's position when asked about the dry bones: "only thou knowest, my LORD".

I'm sticking to what I know when I say "I don't know".

Quote:
Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart we are not really battling intellectual ideas as much as fighting for the right of our sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?



The Bible's replete with references to the human heart... and they're all not very kind. I'm not sure what you, or he, is driving at in that question. Please specify what you're asking me.

 2007/3/19 3:07









 Re: Does God Need Us to Defend Him?

From another thread. Posted by orchardkeeper:

Quote:
A.W.Tozer is quoted in the Revival Hymn video as follows: "He that is from above is above all. I want to say dear Christians don't go around apologizing for Him. Don't go around worried because you can't make His doctrines fit in with what you learned in school. All you learned in school was one fallen head instructing another fallen head. And you don't have to apologize for Him.

 2007/3/19 3:19
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re:

Corey_H,

I just wanted to say I'm kind of in the very boat your recent post mentioned right now. I am studying initially for my undergraduate degree, and I am running into the problem that the academic realm by and large can be trusted.

One thing a professor of mine told me (having studied and then taught in Jerusalem for 6 years) is that there is a strong belief that Genesis 1 (and the first few verses of chapter 2) is a hymn. Hebrew poetry, evidently, focuses heavily on the front of a word (and then meter). Taken secondhand, it really does make sense.

All I can pull from that is that I haven't ever run into a horribly scientifically correct song, and I think that Genesis 1 might have been meant for a slightly different reason than the western church wants.

Maybe this was worthwhile, maybe not - but I thought you might like another bit of information.

Blessings,


_________________
David Reynolds

 2007/3/19 3:37Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
Is it possible that somewhere in the deepest recesses of the human heart we are not really battling intellectual ideas as much as fighting for the right of our sexual proclivities and our passionate indulgences?

Quote:
The Bible's replete with references to the human heart... and they're all not very kind. I'm not sure what you, or he, is driving at in that question. Please specify what you're asking me.



You asked for an explanation...Ravi is asking if the reason people work to discredit the Scriptures is because they do not want to repent of their immoral behavior/passions. So you see you have to destroy that authority so it will free you to indulge in whatever your favorite sin is at the moment and in this case Ravi is suggesting it is sexual. Make sense now?

I admire yur honesty in admitting "You do not know" about origins. Perhaps some day the LORD will impress upon your mind the reality of this issue...it will happen if you trust him in other areas of life. Brother, I am almost 60 YO and in my life the LORD did not give me the understanding all at once, it was gradual, done over a period of years, sometimes. So if you can be content to 'not know' at the moment and do not abandon the faith because you do not understand something now, God will come along and give you that understanding - in his time. And when that happens it will be a "WOW" experience.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/3/20 21:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Brother, I am almost 60 YO and in my life the LORD did not give me the understanding all at once, it was gradual, done over a period of years, sometimes. So if you can be content to 'not know' at the moment and do not abandon the faith because you do not understand something now, God will come along and give you that understanding - in his time. And when that happens it will be a "WOW" experience.



But...sniff...but I want to know NOW!!! (Sulking, hehe)

 2007/3/20 22:59
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Relief

Quote:
I'm sticking to what I know when I say "I don't know".



Ah, that is tremendous brother...

Amen and amen, [i]Lord, Thou knowest[/i] is more than an axiomatic reply now. Wonderful to have some "cognitive dissonance", found it really helpful in many a denominational construct amongst a number of other items.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/3/20 23:10Profile





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