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kerrylou
Member



Joined: 2006/4/2
Posts: 36
Australia

 Re: Mom

Thank you for your coment.

Actually, that was the point I was trying to make with Gwen's story. It was her attitude of faith that was so refreshing. She did die after a second heart attack but she was confidently serving God. As Christians we should not fear - that is the point. Now, I'm not talking about those moments of fear when we are tried and tested but the constant fear that paralyses our faith.

A family friend, Yvonne Stegman also had polio and spent all the time I knew her in leg braces enabling her to get around. But her faith knew no bounds. Her favourite hymn was "And Can it Be". Everyone was moved everytime she sang with all her heart, "My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth, and followed thee!" And that she did with leg braces and all.

Healing and health are not the mark of great spirituality but of God's goodness. We who have been healed ought to be thankful for God's grace; not judgemental toward those who are sick.

However, as I say to my wife (who suffers a back injury and has done so since childhood) while ever there is life there is hope so, why not believe God to heal you? Don't get in a knot over it though for I have never found that to accomplish anything.

I love your mom's testimony. She lives with the same greatful heart as I do. That's wonderful.

Love,

Kerry


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Kerry

 2007/3/14 13:50Profile
kerrylou
Member



Joined: 2006/4/2
Posts: 36
Australia

 Re: 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

Thank you, Doug. I appreciate your apprehension.

Actually the text you quoted is not a good one in your defence because there is nothing to confirm Paul was speaking of an illness. In fact, if you look further at the context it appears he was speaking of the persecution he suffered where ever he went. But God's answer is a word well worth noted. God's grace is always sufficient - no matter what we face. However that grace does not say that I cannot or, should not be healed. It is never heresy to take God at his word. It was God who declared, "I am the Lord that healeth thee." It was the Holy Spirit who declared through the prophet, "He sent His Word and he healed them." It was the Holy Spirit who lead Matthew to write (8:17), "That it might be fulfilled, Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses." One might wonder who it is who needs to return to the Word of God?

If your faith is for God to sustain you in your illness then that is your faith - have it to God and yourself. If your faith is to be healed - then do likewise. In all this we should remember the greater commandment of God says, "I desire mercy." Let us be merciful and compassionate toward one another. Let us rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. That is always the best way.

Keep defending the truth and be ever ready to learn of Christ for, as he said, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Love

Kerry


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Kerry

 2007/3/14 14:10Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re:

Kerry Lou:

Excellent words and correct interpretation of "Paul's thorn in the flesh", persecution.

Perhaps it was human persecutors. Perhaps demonic. The Jews dogged Paul to his death.

Paul may have been using the thorn terminology as was used in Numbers 33:55 "But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

God clearly allows and promises affliction and persecution. This allowance for persecution is for the benefit of the persecutor. If God did not allow persecution then the perscutors, (of whom Saul, later Paul the Apostle was a prime example) would not have the opportunity to hear the Word of God and be saved.





 2007/3/14 16:51Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re:

John:

That God has already provided healing for everyone is scripture.

Isaiah 53:4-5 prophecies about it, " 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Matthew 8: 16-17 confirms that Isaiah was including physical healing "16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."

Peter confirms that God has sovereignly provided healing for all in 1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

John what you are tripping over is an unbiblical sovereignty of God doctrine.

God is sovereign. From the beginning He has said what He meant and meant what He said. And from the beginning we humans have been adding to it and/or taking away from it.

God's grace for eternal life is for everyone but few receive it. Nothing more needs to be done except for a person to receive the finished work of Christ.

In like manner God's grace for physical healing is for everyone and nothing needs to be done by The Lord except for us to take the faith we have also been given and receive the grace.

Easier said then done has been my experience. A good place to start however is by believing scripture and acknowledging where we have denied the Word, added to it or taken from it.

We will also have to acknowledge where good old aunt Sue, Mom, Granpa, pastor, his seminary, my denomination and most of Christianity has missed it.






 2007/3/14 17:30Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Hi Kerrylou,

I re assert that the scripture I quoted is actually very applicable to this discussion for three reasons.

First: The thorn was in his [i]flesh[/i]. The greek word is sarx which is means the physical body and is also used to represent our fallen adamic nature.

Second: the thorn was [i]in[/i] his flesh. As in having a residence there. Persecution is outward and occasional.

Third: While Paul does indeed mention persecutions as one of those life difficulties he takes pleasure in, the first thing he mentions is infirmities. It makes sense to mention this first as he just got done mentioning his thorn in the flesh.

In the greek; infirmity-astheneia {as-then'-i-ah}

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
a) of the body
1) its native weakness and frailty
2) feebleness of health or sickness

b) of the soul
1) want of strength and capacity requisite
a) to understand a thing
b) to do things great and glorious
c) to restrain corrupt desires
d) to bear trials and troubles

One could argue from this definition that he may be refering to the want of strength and capacity requisite to bear trials and troubles in an attempt to bolster the persecution theory, except that he mentions persecution seperately from infirmities in addition to mentioning distress seperately. It could also be argued that he was to his want of strength and capacity requisite to restrain corrupt desires. I have heard the theory that this thorn in the flesh was a besetting sin that he could not overcome. Frankly I reject that idea all together.

In addition to this text, it is believed by historians that Paul did indeed have some physical deformity that caused him to limp. It is also believed that he had poor eyesight. He didn't actually write his epistles, but dictated them to a scribe. When he did write in his own hand he used large letters. Hmmm.

It is late now so I'll sign off for now. In closing et me say that you sound like a sincere and caring brother in the Lord. I believe [i]very[/i] strongly in what I've said so I may come off a bit contentious. Indeed I am contending for what I firmly believe to be the truth. Ultimately we are brothers in the Lord who will be rejoicing together in His presence. I hope we both keep this in mind as I know you won't change my mind and I'd be somewhat surprised if I succeeded in 'enlightening' you. :-)

May the Lord richly blees you and yours,

Doug

PS: My bro from Texas, I have not forgotten you! We shall have words yet! :-x


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Doug Fussell

 2007/3/14 23:53Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi John , I definately dissagree that it is Gods will for some to be sick or stay sick. To me it would be like saying God had second thoughts about the work of the cross.I got to tell you there is nothing like laying hands on somebody and seeing them get their miracle.I used to think ,that somehow healing was Gods cruel joke.But I now know healing is tied directly to faith and the prophetic.People have more faith in doctors and medicine than God.Anyone who goes to a 3rd world country will see much more in the realm of miracles and healing.Some people are saved and some never get saved. i look at this in a thousand ways but it doesnt change truth. And the truth is - It IS GOds will that none perish but that all come to repentance.Why? Idont know why but it connects to Gods character.So if I question healing, Ipersonally believe this stikes at Gods character."By his stipes ye were healed" this paints with a very broad brush.If I pray for someone and they dont get healed it is not Gods fault,what we have at this point is an obsticle.ANd Ive got good news, God can move any obsticle.Healing is definately a work of the cross. He doesent want any of us sick.If I walk by what I see I will question Gods word. It is better to adhere to the word and question why my prayers arent answered.Did you know you can actally change your own testimony?If your testimony is sickness speak to that sickness and tell it "YOU WILL MOVE,YOU WILL LEAVE, I WONT HAVE THIS TESTIMONY,I REFUSE SICKNESS". Ido this all the time. It used to never work for me [even as a born again beliver] but then Jesus showed me faith and the prophetic.Now I walk In a whole new realm.Iam nothing and I am nobody but this nobody has tapped into something awesome. May Gods best be yours,David {.....miracles? one answer...go for it]

 2007/3/15 10:11Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Bud,

Let me take another stab at this. I understand why you believe as you do. Certainly I agree that it is not God's [i]desire[/i] that anyone suffer. Yet it was His [i]will[/i] that His own Son suffer. It was not His [i]desire[/i] that Adam sin and be expelled from the garden. Yet, He knew from the foundations of the world that creating Adam and Eve would ultimately require the greatest sacrifice ever made. He knew we would suffer as a result of the fall, yet He chose in His utter sovereignty to create us anyway. Suffering is not His desire, but He will not allow it to stand in the way of His [i]will[/i].

So how does this relate to healing? Because we live in a fallen world it is necessary that we be taken through a lifelong process called sanctification. This process [i]requires[/i] suffering on our part. It is inescapable. Suffering causes us to see just how weak we are and causes us to draw near to God and [i]His[/i] strength. This was the purpose of Paul's thorn. Ultimately God is glorified as we grow in grace. What is it that god wants from us? To be glorified.

Now, in the case of healing verses not healing someone. God ultimately will get a greater degree of glory from a life surrendered to Him whom He has [i]sovereignly[/i] chosen not to heal than He does from those who are healed. When healing does occur we do indeed marvel and give God praise, but the healing is soon forgotten, or at the very least the manifestation of His grace is no longer clearly evident. A life that has [i]not[/i] received this healing touch becomes a living, breathing, non-stop testimony to the grace of God. It is an incredible thing to meet a saint who has suffered some disability all their life. These people exude joy! What glory God receives as we marvel over this. Which is the greater miracle? This is also true of those who have suffered the loss of a cherished relative, be it their child, sibling, spouse or parent. Those who have gotten through this have a unique degree of compassion for others and often have a gentleness to their demeanor that was wrought in them through the suffering they underwent.

But, you say, the scripture says...as you quote again Isaiah and Peter, "by His stripes we [i]are[/i] healed." The scripture also states that we [i]are[/i] righteous! Yet John states that he who says he is without sin is a liar. In the here and now we discover that sin still abides in us. How then can we be called righteous? Our God is the God Who calls those things that are not as though they are (Rom 4:17). He can do this because He sees the end from the beginning. The fullness of this promise, just as the fullness of our promised righteousness won't be fully realized until that final day.

[color=000066]Rev 21:1-4 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

1 Cor 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."[/color]

What is death? (specifically physical death) It is God sovereignly chosing not to heal our corruptible flesh of whatever current ailment it is suffering from just prior to expiring.

I sincerely hope that you come to your senses brother. This notion that God would heal anyone if they only could get ahold of the right understanding and faith is misguided at the least.

In Christ

Doug


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Doug Fussell

 2007/3/16 19:24Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Onr more thought. Which has the greater faith? He who receives healing or he who does not and continues to glorify God whilst suffering?

He who God heals may just be the one who would utterly fail to glorify God in the face of such testing.


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Doug Fussell

 2007/3/16 20:28Profile
free2bee63
Member



Joined: 2007/3/16
Posts: 20


 Re: Comments on healing

Hi, i'm new here. I'm a college student who serves at a local church in the Northeast. I just wanted to comment real quick. I'm sorry to hear about the lost loved ones on this thread. I in no way mean to offend anyone, but I just wanted to say that some of my family have been healed of cancer without even having hands layed upon them. Jesus paid the price for their sicknesses. It wasn't a matter of whether or not they could recieve their healing; it was a matter of whether or not they had faith Jesus paid the price for their healing.

Jesus already paid the price; we can't pay it. But now that we have the Holy Spirit residing in us (the power of God), we just have to take authority over these things by the word of our mouth sometimes. Just like Jesus spoke to (and about) things and conditions all throughout the Gospels. Not to say sometimes we don't need to stand with others in faith, and not to say the Holy Spirit doesn't operate by touch. But look at the centurion in Luke 7:1-10. He told Jesus all He had to do was speak and his servant would be healed. And Jesus afterward said he had not seen "such great faith even in Israel."

And we are now the sons and daughters of God. Not mere servants or slaves (like a Muslim would profess), but actual sons and daughters. He sees us and loves us as His own, and he has deposited the Holy Spirit in us to operate in the power.

I'm kind of off topic now, so I'm going to stop. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I just wanted to share a little bit of the loving Father I know.

As far as suffering goes; I believe there is suffering other than sickness we are supposed to go through. James 1:4 "Let patience have her perfect work." Whenever I am broken, I go through more suffering than I ever have physically, and it pretty much consumes my whole day. But this type of suffering brings about life, not death.


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matt

 2007/3/17 0:31Profile





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