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DIEDTOSELF
Member



Joined: 2006/12/20
Posts: 61
Minnesota

 Finney

Why do calvinists cringe at that name? I've brought up Finney in conversations and it totaly negated my testamony to certain peoples. There is alot of John Piper loyalists up here and just wondering if maybe he said something to discredit Finney. Any thoughts?


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Craig

 2007/3/9 22:07Profile
jordanamo
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re: Finney

Finney is a Calvinist's worst nightmare-- his entire theological systematic viewpoint was completely contrary and in utter defiance of the Calvinistic, 5-point theology of the day. He didn't really even believe in Original Sin from what I gather, but nor did Paris Reidhead-- but his theological writings are pretty good nonetheless. Take them with a grain of salt and a Bible close by.

Edit: On second look I didn't even explain in summary even what the differentiations stemmed from. To sum up as best as I can (and anyone else can further elaborate,) Finney believed in the ultimate freedom and will of Man. Calvinists believe in the ultimate Sovereignty of God. The thing is, both believe that they contain both of those precepts, but in reality, Finney held to one extreme, and the other guys held to the other. Where and who went the middle ground combining the two is up for you to decide. It's a complicated mess of theological debates that have run on for centuries-- something that is unedifying and unScriptural in it's extremities, but when you combine the two are fully Scriptural. For both are in play throughout the Bible.

Jordan

 2007/3/9 22:19Profile
DIEDTOSELF
Member



Joined: 2006/12/20
Posts: 61
Minnesota

 Re:

I understand this but why such defiance and shut down. He was a great american revivalist don't you think we should hear what he has to say? Did not 80% of his converts stay devout in Christ? I own his systematic theology and think it is wonderful! Ooops should'nt of said that now nobody is going to take me seriously?!?!?! His lectures on Revival is really good also. Ravenhill and Kieth Green seemed to enjoy his writings as well. Why not consider his views when his walk surely showed he was in Christ?


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Craig

 2007/3/9 22:28Profile
jordanamo
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

The "defiance and shut down" that comes from most Calvinists when they hear the name Finney is due to these long-standing feuds of doctrinal differentiations as I said. Most (at least serious, 5-point) Calvinists wouldn't even say you could be saved if you don't hold to their strict theological viewpoint. However the same "defiance and shut down" could be paralleled to if you brought up John Calvin in a group of Nazarenes or what-have-you-- most don't have a pretty image of him as Calvinists don't have of Finney, in my experience at least.

Jordan

 2007/3/9 22:34Profile
Jacob19
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Joined: 2006/3/9
Posts: 74


 Re:

I know many calvinists and have asked them why they do not like Finney, and what most of them say is that he did not believe in the Atonement. If you read his systematic theology it can be misunderstood to mean that, and although I disagree with his view, from what I understand, I would certainly not say that it is heresy, and if it is, it certainly isn't a damnable heresy.

Also most calvinists definately don't say that unless you are a 5-pointer you're not saved. I have one really good friend who is obsessed with Piper and we disagree and that is fine with him.

I do find it interesting that reformed people respect Wesley but not Finney... my theory is that because Wesley had Whitefield to substantiate himself he is accepted whereas Finney had no Calvinist friends...

 2007/3/9 22:46Profile
Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
I know many calvinists and have asked them why they do not like Finney, and what most of them say is that he did not believe in the Atonement. If you read his systematic theology it can be misunderstood to mean that, and although I disagree with his view, from what I understand, I would certainly not say that it is heresy, and if it is, it certainly isn't a damnable heresy.



I second that, brother. The lesser issue involved here is free will and predestination, as you have pointed out with Wesley. The real problem with Finney is his doctrine of the atonement, which really isn't an atonement at all, but rather a safety mechanism for God to forgive man. I can understand on this point why the Calvinists recline when they hear the name Finney. John Wesley on the other hand, though an Arminian, still held the traditional atonement view, and as far as I am concerned, classical Arminianism and classical Calvinism can go together quite nicely. :-)


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Eli Brayley

 2007/3/10 0:20Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I think one of the problems with Finney as well was that he was very much a "moralist" He would use his own convictions as the standard by which others should live. He was quite extreme with things such as how much sugar to use without it being sin, and if one should drink tea.

The reason many Reformed folks do not care for Finney and his theology is that it was contrary to what Historical Christian teaching had taught.

Also the idea that one could be saved one minute, and then the next be lost was not highly regarded either.

I fear that the impact this man has had upon our times is that too many have gotten into a moral gospel which leads to much defeat, and despair rather than understanding the glorious grace of God in saving sinners. Because Finney's atonement view was of the moral government view, he did not see man as utterly and thouroughly tainted and dead in sin, thus you come up with a jesus that cannot really save to the uttermost without man's moral compliance. Thus the work of the cross is not for the propitiation of God's wrath, but rather a picture of how much God hates sin.

I don't know much about Finney, I used to want to read alot of his books, but I will stick with the Puritan authors for now.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/3/10 0:34Profile
Jacob19
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Joined: 2006/3/9
Posts: 74


 Re:

Yeah I see what you are saying about his views becoming somewhat dependent on the morality of man rather than the grace of God, as is the tendency with any arminian, but from what I have read of him he exalts the grace of God in the morality of man and gives God all of the glory for the morality. Again with his views on Atonement he does hold to the moral government view, but it is weird because a lot of what he says is pretty ambiguous and i am still trying to figure it out.

But as roaringlamb said you are always safe sticking with Puritans :-)

 2007/3/10 16:32Profile
jordanamo
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

I'm going to do more research into the Puritans before I state what I "firmly believe" about them. I think that like the Founding Fathers-- there are many, many myths pertaining to them and their "Christian prudence" or what-have-you. But for now I do not know enough of them.

Jordan

 2007/3/10 17:12Profile
Jacob19
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Joined: 2006/3/9
Posts: 74


 Re:

Yeah right now I am reading a book called The Genius of Puritanism and it describes what the preaching was like, the church goers were like as well as outlining many of the greatest men of the time period.
ALthough I do not agree with the Puritans reformed theology, it is so easy to see that they have such a grasp of God that is just breathed into their writings. I think it was Ravenhill who said (maybe quoting someone) "The Puritan preachers lived in eternity 6 days a week and on the 7th they stepped down and told the congregation what God had taught them."

 2007/3/11 21:52Profile





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