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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

For those who understand Calvinism and Arminianism, how do these Scriptures in the previous post align with either position?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/19 1:09Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Hard Hearts and Outstretched Hands

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.



Oh, Jay!

The Jews hearts are hardened until the Church is gathered into the harpazo, or Rapture. Then God will spend 7 very uncomfortable years dealing with them, and the rest of the unbelieving world.
The Church and the Jews are under different covenants, and God never breaks a covenant.

Blessings,


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/19 5:10Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
The Church and the Jews are under different covenants, and God never breaks a covenant.



What covenant are the Jews under and what covenant is the church under?

 2007/3/19 10:42Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Covenants

JaySaved,

The Jews are under the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant of the Law, and will be judged under it.

That law is the Ten Commandments, and all the derivative laws that total to an additional 601 laws of living.

This is why they must be tried in the last seven years of Daniel's prophecy, of which is named, 'the time of Jacob's Trouble'. Alas, this is the last seven years before Jesus returns in glory, to rule and reign, and is what we Christians call the Tribulation.


Christians are under the New Covenant, the Covenant of Grace through Jesus Christ.

We Christians are under both a kinder, but a more comprehensive pair of laws.

Matthew 22:

35. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36. Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38. This is the first and great commandment.
39. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And what is more, we must try to obey not only the letter of the law, but the heart of it. Knowing that this is impossible, and that the Mosaic Law was given to show us our sins, so the Grace of God gives us Jesus's righteousness through His death and ressurrection, and our belief on them.

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/21 4:02Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
JaySaved,

The Jews are under the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant of the Law, and will be judged under it.

That law is the Ten Commandments, and all the derivative laws that total to an additional 601 laws of living.



What do you make of this:
Quote:

[b]1[/b] [u]These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.[/u]
[b]2[/b] And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
[b]3[/b] The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
[b]4[/b] [u]Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, [b]unto this day.[/b][/u]
[b]Deut 29:1-4[/b]



Since this covenant came after Horeb, and according to v4, appears to be a supplementary statement added, due to Israel's inability to perceive, see and hear, until this point, then couldn't it be reasonably assumed that this covenant would override the former? The covenant, here established is spelled out in cc29-30. It is not so much a call to obey statutes, as to flee from idolatry, which will lead to a life live according to the description of the commandments.

Note also that in John 1, the words, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." the word "Word" could be replaced with Torah. Messianic theologians would say that this could be translated, "In the beginning were 613 Commandments...and the 613 Commandments became flesh..." In other words, Jesus is the physical embodiment of Gods Law.

Consider also Paul's words:
Quote:

[b]10[b] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, [u]Cursed is [b]every one[/b] that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/u]
[b]11[/b] But that [u]no man is justified by the law in the sight of God[/u], it is evident: for, [u]The just shall live by faith*[/u].
[b]12[/b] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
...
[b]21[/b] [u]Is the law then against the promises (see * above) of God? God forbid:[/u] for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[b]22[/b] But the [u]scripture hath concluded [b]all[/b] under sin[/u], that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[b]23[/b] But [u]before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith[/u] which should afterwards be revealed.
[b]24[/b] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[b]25[/b] But [u]after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster[/u].
[b]26[/b] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[b]Gal 3:10-12,21-26[/b]



In other words, because the Promise preceded the Law, it must take precedence. If this is the case, then the Law is merely a description of a justified life that is lived by faith. The issue is, and always has been that of faith. Consider also that the Book of Leviticus, wherein is contained the majority of the 613 Commandments, begins with the Burnt Offering, which is to be the basis of all sacrifices contained within, including the sin offering. God never once separated sin from sacrifice. He stated the problem and solution within the same Book. Even with the Ten Commandments, Israel arrived at Horeb, at the early part of their departing from Egypt, which began with the Passover.

Even when you consider the Commandments in Matt 22, these are a part of the 613. Sod's point has always been, "Obey me with My strength, by My grace, through My faith." He clarified this again and again to the Israelites, finally hardening their hearts in Isaiah 6, so that they could no longer hear Him, and yet in spite of this, He promised to spare a remnant, who would return led by "weeping, and with supplications" (Jer 31:9). Jesus cited this as the reason why he spake in parables. It has always been the same, and always will be the same. Israel was given a Law that was based upon a sacrifice, in order to point them to the Messiah to come.

It is more likely that any future suffering on the part of Israel will be shared with the church, than avoided by it.


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/3/21 5:48Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Aaron wrote:

Quote:
Since this covenant came after Horeb, and according to v4, appears to be a supplementary statement added, due to Israel's inability to perceive, see and hear, until this point, then couldn't it be reasonably assumed that this covenant would override the former? The covenant, here established is spelled out in cc29-30. It is not so much a call to obey statutes, as to flee from idolatry, which will lead to a life live according to the description of the commandments.



Here is a sequence of events that speaks of two different covenants...

Ezek. 20:5 “Say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, “flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, “Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, “I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Ezek. 20:10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.


They rebeled while still living in Egypt. God then brought them out of Egypt and then gave them the covenant of Mount Sinai.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/21 6:25Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: The Covenants

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
JaySaved,

The Jews are under the Mosaic Covenant, the covenant of the Law, and will be judged under it.

That law is the Ten Commandments, and all the derivative laws that total to an additional 601 laws of living.



What do you make of this:
Quote:

[b]1[/b] [u]These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.[/u]
[b]2[/b] And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
[b]3[/b] The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
[b]4[/b] [u]Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, [b]unto this day.[/b][/u]
[b]Deut 29:1-4[/b]



Since this covenant came after Horeb, and according to v4, appears to be a supplementary statement added, due to Israel's inability to perceive, see and hear, until this point, then couldn't it be reasonably assumed that this covenant would override the former? The covenant, here established is spelled out in cc29-30. It is not so much a call to obey statutes, as to flee from idolatry, which will lead to a life live according to the description of the commandments... God's point has always been, "Obey me with My strength, by My grace, through My faith." He clarified this again and again to the Israelites, finally hardening their hearts in Isaiah 6, so that they could no longer hear Him, and yet in spite of this, He promised to spare a remnant, who would return led by "weeping, and with supplications" (Jer 31:9). Jesus cited this as the reason why he spake in parables. It has always been the same, and always will be the same. Israel was given a Law that was based upon a sacrifice, in order to point them to the Messiah to come.

It is more likely that any future suffering on the part of Israel will be shared with the church, than avoided by it.



Aaron,

I agree with you that the differing covenants between the Jews and the Christians will make little difference in their suffering as they go through the Tribulation. We are both already undergoing varying degrees of anti-Semitism and anti-Christianism - both get you killed in a lot of places in this world. That will only increase, particularly in the West, where Semites and Christians are only superficially tolerated.

My main statement that I was trying to make is that the Jews agreed to be judged by adherance to the Mosaic Law, whereas we Christians, including Messianic Jews, will be blessed to be judged by the righteousness of Christ, our sin-debt having been paid. In this, it is more an eternal matter than a present danger, although I feel them both very much, particularly for anyone, jew or gentile, who's faith is not in Jesus.

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/21 6:33Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

The Jews are not still under the Mosaic covenant. Each Jewish person is just as lost as any Muslim or atheist.

Hebrews 8

Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."

Is the writer of Hebrews speaking of a different covenant especially for the Jews? No. He is speaking of the New Covenant through Christ.


13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

There are not two covenants: one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles. The Bible tells us plainly that God calls all men from every nation of men to Himself and that in Christ we are one. We are no longer Jew, Gentile, Slave, or Free, but one in Christ.

 2007/3/21 10:48Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
My main statement that I was trying to make is that the Jews agreed to be judged by adherance to the Mosaic Law, whereas we Christians, including Messianic Jews, will be blessed to be judged by the righteousness of Christ, our sin-debt having been paid.



I need clarification on the above statement. Can any Jews obtain redemption through the Mosaic Law?

 2007/3/21 10:52Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Quote:
I need clarification on the above statement. Can any Jews obtain redemption through the Mosaic Law?



The covenant given on Mount Sinai was never intended to redeem anyone in any generation. This is the purpose for the Mosaic law...

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law was only given to show man his sinfulness.

But there is another covenant that preceded the covenant made on Mount Sinai that did redeem the remnant...Paul teaches this in...

Romans 11

5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/26 1:32Profile





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