SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Prevenient Grace

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Sproul and your kind worries for me.

JaySaved wrote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:

Quote:
Teaching the History of God's relationship with man is a complex task. It is much harder to learn what the Bible speaks of before the Holy Spirit enlivens us, then after. But God does not change the heart before we say yes. That is the whole point.

We are all offered the same bargain. Some just refuse to take it.



Why do some just refuse? This is the entire point of R.C.'s article. There has the be a reason that some choose and some do not.

[color=333399]I can tell you, because I spent a long time in that place of denial. That is the reason some choose and some do not. It's why Lucifer can keep on with his plans, and believe that he can win against the God who made him! Denial. And denial is a lot easier to live with than the straight and narrow road with Jesus.[/color]

Quote:
I studied the question for a long time, like the business proposition it was. I looked at the pros and cons. The pros were better. I said yes.



It was simply a 'business proposition'?

UniqueWebrev, from reading your response to R.C. it became very obvious that you were more interesting in disagreeing than actually hearing what he had to say. Case in point:

R.C. said:
Quote:
Rather they (Arminians) are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.”



You replied:
Quote:
No way! I felt so undesparate that I felt I was jumping off a cliff unnecessarily. But I made a reasoned decision, and have never regretted it.



By disagreeing with him you are saying that your salvation was a business transaction in which you did not recognize your desperate need for him. You speak of your decision to follow Christ being a matter of looking at the pros and cons and making a reasoned decision.

Brother, I dare not judge you, but I will be praying for you because this troubles my spirit.



[color=333399]JaySaved, a covenant is a contract. Each party agrees to do something in exchange for something from the other. That makes it a business transaction.

My dear Brother, for once I really wish you would take me at my word. I did very logically weigh the pain and pleasure of the struggle I was in, and the pain and pleasure of following Jesus.

I have an unusual history which I will not go into here - it would take hours to write, and bore me to death - but it resulted in a repression of all natural feelings from 18 mo's upward.

It was only just a few years ago, with the help of the Lord, that I was able to finally feel all the feelings I was taught to repress from toddlerhood. So you see, my decision for Jesus was reasoned out very carefully, after a long study of the situation.

God has worked with me to the point that I could get playful with the Sproul article - and yes, it was fun to disagree. But that doesn't make the answers untrue.

I was simply aware that Mr. Sproul's article was very carefully contrived to lead to a given conclusion, and it was easy for me to answer it honestly. Yes, I was a bit facetious in some places, but frankly, I felt that Mr. Sproul had claimed too much for those that were to read it.

His article was one of the best propaganda pieces I've ever read, leading the reader to a conclusion that makes perfect sense, so long as they don't think about it.

My dear JaySaved, I know we will never agree on this. You will fight to the death for your denomination. The one problem I see in Calvinism is Calvinism's arrogance - for it is arrogance to refuse to admit the possibiity of being wrong. I, on the other hand, although firmly persuaded in what you call prevenient grace, although I wouldn't describe it quite that way, would really listen, and I admit that I could be wrong.

Yes, it would take a lot of proof, and stray texts will not do it, for I look at the whole of the Bible, the massive work God has done over the ages, His complex plans, the way He has accomplished it all, and I can't see Calvinism fitting into it.

It's not just the robot aspect, though if I have had no choice, and God has changed my desires against my will, my love for Him would be false, a construct. It is that Calvinism states that God has decided who will go to hell, provides all who will be saved by decree, then allows some second class citizens to seek Jesus to be saved.

Despite the quote from Romans, which I can understand a very different way than you choose to, based on a probable translation problem, and a different view of physics, I can see the idea of foreknowledge and predestination very differently than you do.

I see God looking at time as if it were a parade. He can see the beginning, the middle, the end, all at the same time. He know's which float is going to break down, and exactly how to handle it. In fact, because He knows about the float problem, He has, in effect, by reason of the great power He has, made it happen, both the breakdown, and getting it working again.

Consequently, predestination to me is part of God's Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Omniprescence. To me, as God foresees, or foreknows, whatever is foreseen or foreknown comes into being. But the method is very specific for how things come into being.

God deals with us in His permissive will, not His perfect will, or everything would already be finished, and done. God would need to have done nothing more than pronounce His pleasure, and decide on a creative manner of accomplishing it.

The only problem with this is that God set up laws that He cannot break without denying Himself. That is why He had to set up the Kinsman Redeemer custom, as part of earthly law, so that He could use it to save us. Jesus, although Divine, is an earthly solution to man's inability to be perfect. It give's God an out, a way to forgive, if only we will take His outstretched hand through Jesus.

My brother, you can tear everyone of my statements to bits, but that doesn't make them not true for me, not believed by me, not done by me, and by others.

You think it impossible to choose God's way coldly and logically. When you've spent as much time with the devil as I have, then you can say it cannot be logically argued.

You believe me to be just arguing for the sake of arguing, and I admit, the Sproul article was like a dogtreat to my coyote mutt when I had read it. But I just answered it line by line, honestly, if lightheartedly. My honesty in admitting that I had a bit of fun with the article should be proof that I am telling the entire truth, good or bad, about myself.

I have read it so many times myself since I wrote it, that I am positive I could not have said it differently, or with more honesty. Oh, I could have left out the facetious remarks, but frankly, it was too much a temptation not to use them. After all, Mr. Sproul didn't hesitate to state my beliefs for me at the end of his article, as if telling me would make it so.

It's bad enough that the damned won't look at Jesus, that they turn away from what is a very simple transaction, a business arrangement, Jesus' blood to cover sins in exchange for belief in and devotion to Jesus.

Yet all you care about is how I argued the case, so to speak. You continually ignore what I say, and simply tell me how badly I argued it, or you throw more texts at me, as if that should convince me. I am not a lawyer, I am a Jesus Freak!

Yes, I can think logically about a matter of faith. I can think logically about anything. I just set my feelings to one side. It is all I was ever trained to do. If ever there was a Vulcan like Spock, he was a member of my family.

And all you do is want to dispute, line by line, as if that will convince me. Disputations do not convince, my brother. And only Jesus could convince me that Calvinism is true, so you'd best start praying if you want me in your denomination. Because I have a different vision of God than you do.

He is a God of complete Justice as well as grace and mercy, and He will not break His own laws even to please Himself. And basically, that is what you claim He has done, by decreeing in violation of His own covenants with mankind salvation for a certain number of men to be saved, some others who can be saved, and damnation for the rest.

Since I hear regularly from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and have had 5 specific orders from God, not to mention several healing miracles, I do not think you need to worry about me. My whole life is Jesus. And only if Jesus wants me to become a Calvinist, will it happen. Until then, I am just a Messianic Gentile, following in the Apostles footsteps without founding a denomination.

Calvinism is a pretty idea, with so many comforts built in. If you are a Calvinist, then God has chosen you to be saved, to be one of the elect. You are safe forever. Don't worry, everything will be fine.

It's a nice evangelism line, but not the way you live with God. Oddly, JaySaved, you say one thing, the straight Calvinist line, but you live Christ the same way I do, with hope, and faith, and fear of displeasing Him. I think that you actually forget to be 'predestined'.

I am comfortable in the outlines of my faith. I listen to the Holy Spirit, and to Jesus, and if they say frog, I jump as best I can. I admit to not always hearing as well as I'd like, but that grows easier every day. I don't really even think anymore except in terms of anything except of how it will affect me-and-Jesus. Not me and Jesus, me-and-Jesus.

I don't think, JaySaved, from all that I have read, that you think or act any diffeently. But you persist in stating a belief system that I think you have outgrown. For methinks my Brother doth protest too much.

Love and Blessings,

Postscript: Jaysaved, you may not realize it, but you quote 'R.C.' with more belief and dedication than you do the Bible, as if 'R.C.' cannot be wrong. That what 'R.C.' says is the gospel truth, not the Bible. Be very careful, here, Brother, for it makes you sound like a cult follower, and makes Calvinism sound like a believe or die cult.[/color]


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/10 13:10Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

UniqueWebRev, We must agree to disagree. I do not think less of you because you see scripture in a different light than I do. I honestly believe that we agree on all the major tenets of faith, we just disagree on how all of it takes place.

I hope through his experience that you would get a new understanding of what true Calvinism is. It is not a cult, it is not a sect, it is just an interpretation of scripture that I view to be correct. You disagree however.

I do not doubt your honesty in answering these questions. I think you are wrong but I honestly believe you believe what you believe (lots of believes!)

Quote:
Postscript: Jaysaved, you may not realize it, but you quote 'R.C.' with more belief and dedication than you do the Bible, as if 'R.C.' cannot be wrong. That what 'R.C.' says is the gospel truth, not the Bible. Be very careful, here, Brother, for it makes you sound like a cult follower, and makes Calvinism sound like a believe or die cult.



I want to go on record to say that your quote is completely wrong. I think Sproul is wrong on Infant Baptism and I disagree with some of his Eschatology and probably numerous other things. I do not think Sproul is infallible, but I do think he is a smart man. Also, all my posts are available for everyone to see and it is plain to everyone that I quote from scripture more than anything else. If you don't believe me, check for yourself.

BTW, you never addressed my statments on John 6:44.

 2007/3/10 15:50Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


In this Scripture what do you here Brother Jay?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/11 17:18Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.



Do you think that God was a Father to Jeremiah?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/11 17:37Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Agree to Disagree

No Problem, my Brother.

After all this time, I too think that we will never agree.

Re: the R.C. quotes, remember how you said that things sound harsher or more absolute in writing? Your words on R. C. 'sounded' adoring in a way your treatment of the Bible never does, so that is why I mentioned it. It 'sounded' very odd - please review for future avoidance. I''l take your word for it that Mr. Sproul is not 100% correct in your viewpoint.

How blessed we are to be able to disagree so openly, and not get shot, or have to pick up dueling swords!

Many Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/12 0:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote:

Quote; "Do you think that God was a Father to Jeremiah?"


Not as a Seed giving Father, but like Abraham a Father of Nations, God was called their creating
Father of all that they were as a chosen people of God.

There is a difference in a creation son's and a birthed Son. You See When we call God our Father, by the Christ Seed that is born again in us, He is more than creating Father to those that have Jesus Christ Birthed in them. Not only chosen but redeemed and birthed by God Himself whom Jesus said, Pray this way, "Our Father", this Father means Parent. Jeremiah's Father means an earthly Father, for they had not been born again by the Seed of Christ in them. They, Israel can never become this unless they now believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Which Jeremiah had no understanding as those after the Cross, revealed by the Holy Spirit. They will be Christ Ones as all that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. They did not even know His Name.

They will have God's Laws written in their hearts. We have the Heart of God in Christ Jesus birthed in us. Our Nature is Godly by Christ Jesus. Is Christ a Son as Jeremiah and calls God Father the same as Christ Jesus does, and as we that are Born Again of Incorruptable Seed?

"It is no longer I who live But Christ who lives in me"

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/12 0:33Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Phillip...

Jer. 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:

By what means does God sanctify Jeremiah?

What does Jesus mean when He prays...

John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/12 1:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

The Word of the Lord came to Moses, Adam, Abraham, all in the old testament. There was no Son revealed in them.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].

"The Son (((will))) reveal." It was Good in the sight of God.

Matthew 11:25-26 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Did Jeremiah believe that Jesus is the Christ?

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

What is written?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/12 2:59Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Phillip quoted:

Quote:
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto Me of My Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [Him].



Who revealed the Father to Jeremiah?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/12 3:15Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Psalm 119

130 The entrance of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple.
131 I opened my mouth and panted,
For I longed for Your commandments.
132 Look upon me and be merciful to me,
As Your custom is toward those who love Your name.

This man loved God's name. Is is possible for man to love God with only his carnal mind? What does Paul teach?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/12 3:26Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy