SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : True Holiness -schaible

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 Next Page )
PosterThread
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37178
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 True Holiness -schaible


[b]True Holiness [/b]
[i]by Evan Schaible[/i]

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Eph. 4:24)

What is the definition of holiness? Most say sinlessness.
What is the definition of righteousness? Most say... sinlessness.

There is a fundamental flaw in this view that God has been showing me. The view I am speaking of is the view that says holiness is walking free of sin, and that solely.

Holiness is radically different than simply walking free from sin. When the bible says God is holy, it means something totally other than sinless, it means that God is totally other. There is none like God in heaven or on earth. Neither the glorious beings that surround His throne or the smallest and dirtiest little microorganism on the bottom of your shoe is any more like God than one another. There is none like God - He is totally separate from sinful man, from the filth of the world, and from all things contrary to Him. He is not like us only bigger, He is nothing like us and His glory would consume us in an instant of being in His presence.

Holiness has very little to do with sinlessness. It has to do with being separated unto God for His glory, His purpose, His pleasure and set apart to worship Him and Him alone. Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, and come out from among the world and be separate. The Christian is hard pressed to say he is sinless - because in saying this he deceives himself and shows his ignorance to the majesty and glory of God. So now I must show the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian regarding sin.

A non-Christian lives in open rebellion against God. The sinner walks in spiteful pride and disregards the wisdom of God and destroys his own soul. He walks independently arrogant, and in a state of arrogant independence. He feels he can live a life without God, and fails to realize that without God he has not life - but rather is dead in trespasses and sins. All of this is done with an attitude of carelessness.

A Christian on the other hand has come to a place where they realize that God the Son bore His sin on the tree; they see that on that cross the creator of the the heaven and the earth yielded His life in atonement for sin. They see that God the Father poured out His wrath on His Son, and that wrath was to be poured out upon him. They begin to understand the magnitude of the love of God, and the depths and the riches of the mercy of God as seen on the cross. He was bruised for our iniquities, He suffered for our transgressions, and by His stripes we are healed.

Jesus went from the cross to the grave as a dead man who had given up His soul as an offering for sin. It pleased the Father to bruise His son - that justice might be fulfilled. The Son vindicated the Father by showing in His death that He was just; and the Father vindicated the Son in the resurrection by showing that not even death could hold Him. Christ has brought life, and immortality to light through the glorious gospel and now the believer can shout in triumph "o death where is thy sting" and ponder the thought that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for him.

The power of the Gospel of Christ lies not in merely in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Christ. If Christ be not raised, then our faith is in vain, and we are yet in our sins. A dead saviour is no saviour at all - but Jesus Christ is He who has risen and will one day call all the dead to life again and beckon them come and take their place before the judgment seat. Jesus if sat at the right hand of the the Father and will intercede for all who call on Him in humble mercy. He was risen for our justification. He must stand before the Father to plead the cause of the broken and contrite - and that is exactly where He is - risen and ascended to the Father.

The Christian sees this - and is terrified to tread the Son under his feet. He sees the sacrifice, the mercy, the wrath, the love, and the hate and would rather die than to spurn the grace that has saved his very soul. He throws himself utterly into the hands of the risen Christ and stays there. If the Christian sins, and that will only happen in moments of ignorance, passion, or unwatchfulness, he has an advocate who looks on only those of a broken and contrite spirit, and who tremble at His word.

The gospel is so much more than even we can now see. If the smart theologian claims to fully grasp the gospel, then I would hasten to say that the only thing that theologian needs to delve deeply into is his own ignorance, because he hasn't yet fully grasped that. The mercy of God is unsearchable, yet we always find ourselves searching it - and rightly so. This grace is what drives the Christian to the cling to the cross and let himself be bound there.

Holiness comes from a heart enraptured by the love of Christ, and terrified at His holiness. The new man, created in Christ, who has embraced the very person of the Son, taken Him as his own, and surrendered wholly to Him is the man who walks in holiness. This is true holiness - a walk with God from new birth to death. "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Eph. 4:24)


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/3/7 17:58Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: True Holiness -schaible

I liked it. I’m not sure how well it will go over with the “sinless” holiness crowd, but I liked the article. Thought it was Paul Washer at the beginning. He uses some of the same comparisons in one of his sermons.


_________________
TJ

 2007/3/7 19:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What is the definition of holiness? Most say sinlessness.
What is the definition of righteousness? Most say... sinlessness.



Perhaps 'most do' but not 'all'. I am probably one of the folk you have in mind as being part of the "sinless" holiness crowd but I have no problems with this article. I am always sorry when I hear 'sactification' described in terms of things I no longer do!

As far as I am aware only Christ is ever described as being 'without sin'John 8:7 (KJVS) So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is [b]without sin[/b] among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Heb. 4:15 (KJVS) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet [b]without sin[/b].

Heb. 9:28 (KJVS) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time [b]without sin[/b] unto salvation. The biblical phrase used to describe those baptised into Christ's baptism is...Rom. 6:18 (KJVS) Being then [b]made free from sin[/b], ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom. 6:22 (KJVS) But now being [b]made free from sin[/b], and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
...which means something quite different.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/8 4:35Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am probably one of the folk you have in mind as being part of the "sinless" holiness crowd...



I was talking about those who say they do not and have not sinned in 30 yrs


_________________
TJ

 2007/3/8 10:48Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
The biblical phrase used to describe those baptised into Christ's baptism is...
Rom. 6:18 (KJVS) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom. 6:22 (KJVS) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

...which means something quite different.



Well don't stop there. :-D

I would say the verses in Romans are dealing with "indwelling sin" or "the old nature." Now we are not held captive to sin. When we want to do what God asks of us we do not have a "law" that overpowers us.

Can you explain the differences in the verses you listed above those I quoted?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/3/8 12:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Can you explain the differences in the verses you listed above those I quoted?


Christ is absolutely without sin. As regards both nature and event. “Who [b]did no sin[/b], neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1Pet 2:22 KJVS)

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who [b]knew no sin[/b]; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2Cor 5:21 KJVS)

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and [b]in him is no sin[/b].” (1John 3:5 KJVS)There is no record of sin against Christ and no presence of sin in Him. He alone is the exception to "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23.

As for the rest of us...“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1John 1:10 KJVS) With John Wesley, I regard as 1John 1:10 as the expansion of 1 John 1:8.

I agree with you as the nature of sin in Romans 6.Rom. 6:18 (YNG) and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.

Rom. 6:22 (YNG) And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit — to sanctification, and the end life age-during;


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/8 13:18Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Ah, so you are simply saying that Christ never sinned (of course I agree) and that we all have sinned before and were bound to sin.

I thought you were making a distinction I wasn't aware of. I see what you mean now.




_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/3/8 14:33Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37178
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1John 1:10 KJVS)
With John Wesley, I regard as 1John 1:10 as the expansion of 1 John 1:8.


Ron,

Could you further that thought? I have alwasy read the english versions of those verses and thought how anyone could get any other intrepretation then if we claim we don't have sin we are a liar. I know Wesley's position somewhat but I would like a refresher and to hear your personal slant on it dear brother. If you want to start another thread on it feel free to do so and link to it from here, which ever you think is best.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/3/8 14:51Profile
death2self
Member



Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area

 Re:

Here's an interpretation from Aaron (A.M.) Hills a great holiness teacher and preacher and Greg has placed a number of his articles on this site. It's a bit long but is on point.

Cleansing From All Sin

"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all."

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth."

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin."

"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us." -- l John 1:5-10.

A great heresy arose during the closing years of the first century. It threatened the utter Subversion and destruction of the Christian religion. Peter wrote against it (2 Peter 2:1219). Jude wrote a blistering message against it (4, 10-19). Paul foretold it in his parting address to the Church of Ephesus (Acts 20:18-35) and in his Second Epistle to Timothy (3:1-8). John hurled his fiercest invectives against it in his first epistle, of which our text is the preliminary summary. Even Jesus condemned it in His message to the churches (Rev. 2:6 and 14-16).

These false teachers were variously called Nicolaitanes and Gnostics. They went everywhere infesting the churches, denying the real incarnation of Christ and the reality of His atoning death. Their primal dogma that all evil resided in matter and did not affect the soul, was a heathen notion imported from Eastern Asia. Under its baleful influence even church members imbibed the idea that they could be purified in soul by a mental knowledge of God, and could then indulge their bodies in any form of vice . without spiritual detriment. A gross licentiousness resulted, consecrated by a false profession.

[b]Irenaeus says of them: "They assert that they themselves will be saved, not by practice, but because they are spiritual by nature, and that, as gold, though mingled With mire, does not lose its beauty, so they themselves, though wallowing in the mire of carnal works, do not lose their own spiritual essence; and therefore, though they resort to the banquets which the heathen celebrate in honor of their false gods, and abstain from nothing that is foul in the eyes of God or man, they say that they cannot contract any defilement from these impure abominations, and they scoff at us who fear God as silly dotards."[/b]

In other words, these vile heretics taught that "a man might be an outrageous violator of moral law and yet be a pure and holy saint." It was a subtle error most pleasing to carnality, and struck a deadly blow at Christian morality. The aged apostle wrote this epistle as a defense of CHRISTIAN PURITY FROM SIN against Gnostic purity IN SIN. He says: "These things have I written concerning them that seduce you" (1 John 2:26).

There is a constant series of burning antithetical ideas, issues between the true view and the Opposite error, stated in the most intense language. John put all the earnestness of his Christ-like soul into it, because he saw that the foundations of Christian purity were involved and Christianity itself was at stake.

1. -- Then consider the text as a whole. There are six verses in all, with three antithetical or opposing ideas, two verses to each. The first verse of each pair of verses states the Christian truth of pardon, purity, and full salvation. The second verse of each pair is not a description of Christian character at all, but is a stunning blow at the doctrine and practice of these vile teachers who are seducing Christians from morality, and by their practice were uniting professed sanctity with unspeakable depravity.

Let us consider these verses by pairs, and the truth will appear. In the fifth verse the apostle teaches that "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." In other words, God is light. His children will be children of the light and of the day. They will walk in the light of moral purity, and will be without darkness, like their Father.

Verse six gives the antithesis, -- a blow at the seducers: "If we say (he meant, If YOU say) that we (you) have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness (as your false teachers say and do), we (you) lie and do not tell the truth." That is, "You simply cannot have fellowship with a holy God and practice vice as you are doing; and if you say that you do, YOU LIE." It was terrific plainness, and he simply softened it by saying "we" instead of "you," to make the castigation a little more acceptable.

Take the next pair of verses. Verse 7 gives the blessed hope of salvation: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another (we and God), and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin." This is the way of full salvation and complete deliverance from all sin. Walk in the light of God in faith and obedience, and He will cleanse our hearts "FROM ALL SIN" Sin of every kind will be taken away.

Verse 8 is the antithesis -- another fearful blow at heresy: "If we (you) say that we (you) have no sin (and no need of a Savior from all past sins, as your vile teachers would have you believe), we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (you deceive yourselves and the truth is not in you)."

You Nicolaitan Gnostics affirm that your wicked vices are not wrong, and that when you practice them you commit no sin; but you are simply deceiving yourselves. You will not get rid of your sins by denying them, but by confessing and forsaking, and by praying for an application of the cleansing blood of Jesus.

Look now at the third pair. Verse 9 gives us again the blessed truth of full salvation: "If we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This verse tells us how one may walk in the light of a holy God, and obtain justification and sanctification and complete deliverance from all unrighteousness of heart) . God has a perfect cleansing for us all.

Verse 10 gives the third antithesis -- another blow at the doctrine of these corrupt teachers: "If we say we have not sinned (as these seducers say), we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us." In others words: "If you Gnostics, or any that accept your doctrines, say you have not sinned, while you are wallowing in shameless orgies of vice, you make God a liar and His Word is not in you."

II. -- If now we write the first verses of these three pairs together, and then write the second verses together, the correctness of our interpretation will be more apparent.

Verse 5: "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all."

Verse 7: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Verse 9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." These three verses are the Gibraltar of the Christian faith, an epitome of the gospel of full Salvation. Jesus has made ample provision for us to be justified and sanctified, pardoned and cleansed, from ALL SIN and ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, and thus made clean and holy. It is not salvation IN sin, but salvation FROM sin, of every form and degree. It is what we al must have to get to heaven. The other three verses, antithetical to these, are a scathing denunciation of the teaching of the Gnostics, who were corrupting the churches by teaching that people could be in a saved relation with God and yet be living in drunkenness and licentiousness. Notice how they read, and think of the pronouns as being in the second person, instead of the first, and all will be plain.

Verse 6: "If we (you) say that we (you) have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we (you) lie and do not the truth."

Verse 8: "If we (you) say that we (you) have no sin, we (you) deceive ourselves (yourselves) and the truth is not in us (you)."

Verse 10: "If we say we have not sinned (as these seducers say while practicing all sin), we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us."

Just such antithetical passages fill the entire epistle, and show to a demonstration that the beloved apostle was writing against the teaching and practice of Antinomian heretics who were teaching a salvation IN vice rather than FROM vice. John himself said, "These things I write concerning them that seduce you." The above grouping of these verses makes this Scripture perfectly plain, and robs it of all its seeming contradictions.

III. -- It is amazing that any Christian teachers should wrest this eighth verse from its connection and divinely-intended meaning, and apply it to holy children of God who profess sanctification. It is a warning to wicked deceivers and their followers who are described as "having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin," "which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam." But one preacher applies these words to the best of Christians thus: "What can be clearer than the statement, 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us'? To say we have not sinned, or to say we have no sin, is to show ourselves destitute of God's truth." What a wretched interpretation it is to take these words, hurled against vile seducers of the bride of Christ, and force them to teach as a divine revelation that the bride herself, with all the heavenly 'Bridegroom's sanctifying indwelling, and the cleansing of the Holy Spirit, cannot herself be pure and clean!

We should like to ask this brother and his fellow-preachers a few questions:

(1) When a sinner has experienced the works of grace described in verses 7 and 9, that is, when he has been pardoned, and afterward cleansed from "ALL sin" and "ALL unrighteousness," how much sin has he left in himself to lie about?

(2) When God has thus pardoned and cleansed one of his obedient, trusting children, and that child gladly testifies for the glory of Jesus to his cleansing, does this saint of God lie in saying, "I am now, by the grace of God, without sin"?

(3) Does an inspired apostle flatly contradict himself with a single pen full of ink by writing that we may be cleansed from "all sin" and "ALL unrighteousness," and yet we still have sin in us until the last breath of life? And does he teach that to testify to the Holy Spirit's cleansing would be a lie?

If the King of England should pick up a filthy, ragged London beggar, take him to his own bath-room and wash him thoroughly, and burn up his rags and clothe him with the best of garments, would the beggar lie if he should then say, "By the grace of the King, I am now without filth and without rags"? Of course not! And no more does a child of the King of kings falsify when he extols the grace of his heavenly Father.

(4) Do those teachers who declare that "we must have sin in us to the last hour of life" fitly honor the great salvation of Jesus? "All unrighteousness is sin. But the apostle, inspired by the Holy Spirit, declares that "the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from ALL sin and ALL unrighteousness."

Adam Clarke well says: "To attempt to evade this and to plead for the continuance of sin in the heart through life is UNGRATEFUL, WICKED, and even BLASPHEMOUS; for, as he who says he has not sinned makes God a liar, so he that says the blood of Christ either cannot or will not cleanse us from all sin in this life, GIVES ALSO THE LIE TO HIS MAKER." God help us all to keep back from such awful sin!

Thank God, the old gospel will stand in spite of those who oppose Bible holiness and plead for the life-long continuance of sin in the heart! No wresting of Scripture from its connection, and the avowed purpose of the writer, can rob weary souls of their blood-bought right to be cleansed from every stain of sin. The seventh verse and the ninth verse tell us of a complete deliverance. There is a double necessity and a double cure. Sin exists in two forms; actual Sin which must be pardoned, and inherited indwelling sin or depravity which pardon cannot reach. It needs to be cleansed away. And if we confess and forsake our sins they can be pardoned. And afterward, if we abhor our pollution of nature, our indwelling sin can be cleansed. The immutable Word of God declares (verse 9): "If we confess our sins, God is faithful to His promise and just to His atoning Son to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness."

Jesus is "an uttermost Savior." His precious blood can and does cleanse from ALL SIN. And those who have the blessed sanctification of the Holy Ghost can testify to freedom from sin without lying.


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2007/3/8 15:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by sermonindex on 2007/3/8 19:51:13

Quote:
Could you further that thought? I have alwasy read the english versions of those verses and thought how anyone could get any other intrepretation then if we claim we don't have sin we are a liar. I know Wesley's position somewhat but I would like a refresher and to hear your personal slant on it dear brother. If you want to start another thread on it feel free to do so and link to it from here, which ever you think is best.

This is the quotation from John Wesley’s Plain Account of Christian Perfection. "But St. John himself says, 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves;' and, 'If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.'

"I answer, (1.) The tenth verse fixes the sense of the eighth: 'If we say we have no sin,' in the former, being explained by, 'If we say we have not sinned, 'in the latter, verse. (2.) The point under consideration is not, whether we have or have not sinned heretofore; and neither of these verses asserts that we do sin, or commit sin now. (3.) The ninth verse explains both the eighth and tenth: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' As if he had said, 'I have before affirmed, The blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin.' And no man can say, 'I need it not; I have no sin to be cleansed, from.' 'If we say, we have no sin, that 'we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves,' and make God a liar: But 'if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just,' not only 'to forgive us our sins,' but also 'to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,' that we may 'go and sin no more.' In conformity, therefore, both to the doctrine of St. John, and the whole tenor of the New Testament, we fix this conclusion: A Christian is so far perfect, as not to commit sin.So I will just comment as to why I think he is right in his interpretation. There are those who want to make the statement “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves…” a continual and universal axiom which is always true but if that is so how can it be said that ‘the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”? It either cleanses from all sin or it doesn’t. If if does then the recipient of this cleansing must be ‘without sin’ in the moment of his cleansing. If so there is a moment when it would be quite true to say “we have no sin” it cannot be a universal and comprehensive axiom, because in the moment of his cleansing it would no longer be true.

So the general interpretation of this verse cannot be true. It is not true that always and in every instance the man who says “we have no sin” is deceiving himself and acting contrary to the truth. So having eliminated the tradational interpretation what do we have left? Wesley’s interpretation that verse 10 fixes the sense of verse 8.

However it would always be true that a man who says "we have not sinned" is denying the testimony of God that all have sinned.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/8 18:35Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy