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mom23beagles
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Joined: 2007/2/25
Posts: 55
Appleton, Wisconsin, USA

 Do all dogs really go to Heaven? - John MacArthur

[url=http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=issues&aid=176418]http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=issues&aid=176418[/url]

This is a difficult one for me. I am childless (by choice), and my beagles have been the earthly beings that I have had to care for and love. Many times while I was still in sin they were the only thing that got me out of my bed and pity party because they needed care. There's a long story behind this and perhaps I can share it some time but I don't want to take the focus off this discussion.

God has made me as I am, with a heart for people and for the animals - I see Psalm 139:13-16:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

I have lost two precious beagles along the way - Willy and Peanut, both seniors. At the time of their deaths, I struggled very much, but as I was still in sin at the time I did not see the full picture and was still taking counsel from my "friends" in the world who said, "don't worry, you'll see Willy and Peanut again when you get to Heaven."

Now, as all things are become new, I am becoming convinced that I will not see them again, but I am very okay with that. We will be in Heaven to praise God for eternity, nothing else is going to matter. I will not be there to get a hug from my deceased beagles, as much as I would have loved to believe that at the time of their deaths and in the subsequent months.

I have their ashes and pictures as a memorial and I remember them fondly as an enormous part of my life. I grieve no longer but do have times when I miss them terribly.

So I guess my question is, has anyone else had this experience and what is your take, knowing what the Word says, about all this? Pastor MacArthur's piece is nice, comforting to a certain extent, and I appreciate it. But more and more I am believing that my beagles, while I adore them, they are part of my family, and I believe I have been entrusted with their care, are merely a blessing here on earth, and to not expect any more than that from them.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this. My focus is my walk with the Lord, growth and fruitfulness. My expectation is that God will keep me and sustain me and not let anything get in the way of that, as long as I follow His paths. I'm ready to hear what anyone has to say about this - I believe the time has come, by the grace of God.

Mia and Bailey, Dugan, Buddy and Agnes the beagles.





 2007/3/5 12:27Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Do all dogs really go to Heaven? - John MacArthur

Hi sister,

Write this with a bit of hesitancy, one of our brothers here recently lost his loyal companion...

This being one of those things not mentioned in specific have always come back to the situation with Nathan and David as a consideration;

12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.

12:2 The rich [man] had exceeding many flocks and herds:

12:3 [b]But the poor [man] had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter[/b].

12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, [As] the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this [thing] shall surely die:

12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

Whatever the case may be in the telling of it, as an illustration as it seems, still, the understanding that this was a pet and loved does show forth something substantive at the level of indignation that came from Davids heart (though it was used to prove him guiltily of his doing the same).

David was a man after God's own heart even with his failure and I realize it is a stretch to make this bridge the gap... Being that the scriptures are silent and speculation what it is, still think I would be surprised that the desires of our hearts would not be met there with sloppy kisses and contented purring. :-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/3/5 15:47Profile









 Re: Do all dogs really go to Heaven? - John MacArthur

Hi Sis

I posted a reply on this but it seems not to have got through, so try again!

Romans 8:18-21 is the only scripture I know of that seems to be saying that there will be animals, if not in heaven, certainly in the New Creation somewhere.

No time just now to listen to the link you posted, (its late here) but this may help...?

[i]18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; [b]21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.[/b][/i]

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/3/5 18:17
joyinjesus8
Member



Joined: 2007/3/2
Posts: 69
Outback Australia

 Re: Do all dogs really go to Heaven? - John MacArthur

I read this message a few times, it touched my heart. Our loyal companion Cassandra-Jane will be 17 of our years old in a couple of months. Animals are a part of the family and since I can remember I would sob buckets over even the merest fish that left this world.

Admittedly I have not studied the subject. I am thankful for the last 2 posts. I believe that the great Creator speaks all languages - including those of our featheres and furry friends. I will certainly be having a look into this as our pets are very important and much loved.

Blessings


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Ann - but everyone calls me Joy

 2007/3/5 19:46Profile
John173
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Part of the glory of God is the creation itself! Just look at the incredible variety He has placed here for our enjoyment! Whether it is landscapes, trees, fruits, vegetables, flowers, fish, birds, and even dogs. Will this God of ours have changed His tune regarding our eternal home? I like what Keith Green had to say. "If it took God six days to create the whole world, and He's been working on heaven for two thousand years.." Well he compares this earth to living in a garbage can and I can't quite agree with that, but you get the point. Will our beloved pets be there to great us? I've no idea, but I am convinced there will be some beautiful animals, and just think, none of them are likely to try and eat you!

Praise God!

Looking forward to that day,

Doug


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Doug Fussell

 2007/3/5 20:31Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I have loved dogs all my life. I had just started to breed them when God took hold of my life in my teens. Currently we have a Staffy; the third in a line of delinquents of this breed. Jerome K Jerome once said that 'fox terriers have twice as much original sin as other dogs' but he had clearly never had a Staffy. (and he was joking, before we start the whole original sin thread again!)

I think John MacArthur says just about all that can be said on the topic but I will add this general comment. I don't believe the Enemy will have the last word. In a sense I don't believe anything that is truly noble or beautiful will be missing from heaven and I don't believe that anything that is ignoble or ugly will be there either.

Heaven is a place where all tears are wiped away; even tears for our dogs! (and I have shed a few in my time!) I don't know how all this will be resolved but I believe that God will undo the effects of man's sin upon the animal creation. Surely the creation's longings will find their fulfillment and not just in the last generation when he returns.

As I write my own dog is lying at my feet, sighing and waiting... for her walk. Not a single bird falls to the ground alone. God knows all the longings of the animal creation. Somehow, somewhere nothing will be wasted.

BTW Mark Twain once commented 'Heaven must be by grace, otherwise you would be shut out and your dog let in'. Not a biblical sentiment but a provoking one all the same. :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/6 4:50Profile
NormStrong
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Joined: 2020/11/1
Posts: 2


 Re: Adding to what Jeannette said

Romans 18, that little section that talks about creation longing for redemption. There's a few key point in that whole thing.

1st: Creation for some reason is eagerly awaiting the revealing of the sons of God. Why? First, what is the revealing of the sons of God? Well, what else can it be other than either the 2nd Coming of Christ where Christ gathers up his faithful to rule with him for 1,000 years or the judgment where Christ says depart or well done.
Why does creation eagerly await this? Because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, or as said previously, from the futility they are unwillingly subjected too.

So, now why is creation eagerly awaiting for the faithful of God to be named, i.e. for the sons of God to be revealed? Is creation just waiting for no reason?

2nd: Creation was subjected to futility unwillingly by him who subjected it. What does subjected to futility mean? We know by Solomon. All is vanity, all is meaningless. Why is all vanity and meaningless under the sun? Right, because of sin. It all inevitably goes to dust anyway. So, all is futile because no matter how much you struggle, you die anyway, and all you fought so hard for, all you learned and taught eventually is for nothing because it is all forgotten in time. All of the good you ever did for the world is inevitably worthless and pointless, unless it is good that built more treasure in heaven, and only that good you did won't suffer the futility of inevitable death, pointlessness.

3rd: So, what was this futility creation was subjected too then? The law of sin and death of course. All of creation exists entirely in futility because no matter what, it will all die and inevitably be forgotten, and none of the good it ever did will ever last. If all you do is exist to die and be forgotten, what point is there to your existence? That is fundamentally the law that all of creation lives under right now. So, you can see why now that creation eagerly awaits for the sons of God to be revealed. In fact, that is what is told to us in the next verse or two.

4th: Here's the next to final key point: If you read it, God tells us that creation was subjected to this futility unwillingly. Understand what that means. Creation did not choose the futility inherent to the law of sin and death. No, in fact creation was subjected to this futility unwillingly by he who subjected it to it. And who is he that that subjected creation to futility against its will? God, and why did he do that. Well, God tells us it's for hope. Hope for what though, hope for us. You see, God was so troubled by our sinning, that he realized that if we had any hope of finding him, we needed to know the tragedy and finality of sin. And we see it all of our days from childhood to our own death, that death and decay from which there is no coming back, and if we don't find life, then we're finished. There is no coming back. There is no reload. There is no purgatory. This is it. We must find life before we die because when we die, that's it, we're done. Decay and death will be our sole existence for all eternity. The only source of life is God, and the only one worthy of life that lived and died as we do, yet never chose to subject himself or herself to futility is Christ.

You see, creation did not choose futility, but were subjected to it unwillingly by God for the sake of hope, for our sake. We humans however chose futility. Creation did not choose futility, but we humans did choose futility. And so now in the hopes that we will seek for God and find life, find Christ, God cursed the whole of creation to subject it to the penalty of sin and death. But that's only temporary, right, because remember what God tells us . . .

5th: And here's the final capstone point in all of this. God tells us that Creation itself will also be delivered from the bondage of corruption. So, now it all makes sense right? That is why creation eagerly awaits for the sons of God to be revealed. That is why creation groans now. It's because creation is eagerly awaiting its own deliverance from the curse of sin and death.

And so here's the question and why all of this applies here: Are your dogs a part of creation that is being unwillingly subjected to the futility of the law of sin and death, or are your dogs a part of humankind who willingly subjected themselves to the futility of the law of sin and death.

Right, there is only one reasonable answer to that question.

So, will our animals be in heaven? According to this area above Romans 18, all of creation will be in heaven. However, perhaps for now the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth as it eagerly awaits the time when the sons of God are revealed so that it too can have its deliverance from the bonds of corruption. Perhaps it is then where we will see what it says in Ecclesiastes, that the spirit returns to the god who gave it.

Full disclosure: (My own thoughts and concerns: This has nothing to do with my point above.)
In the interests of full disclosure, I too find myself questioning these things. You see, my dog also recently passed. One question that keeps occurring to me is whether or not we humans who go with Christ actually decide what of creation gets to go to heaven. After all, the Bible says we will judge the world, and it suggests here in this Romans 18 area that the deliverance of Creation has something to do with the sons of God being revealed. I assume it's just by virtue of the fact that when the sons of God are revealed, then it's a time of God making his will happen, and you know he's a God of life, right. It makes me think that when Christ fully delivers us from sin, as in we have our new bodies, are no longer tempted by sin, and there is absolutely no longer any danger of us falling away . . . such as when we die and go to Jesus, that perhaps he is going to give us the task of judging creation and deciding which of creation gets to be delivered from the law of sin and death and which of creation goes away when the heavens and the earth are destroyed by Christ just before giving us a new heaven and earth. You see, because if that's the case, then who's going to choose to bring my dog back so that he can live in heaven? I would be the one who would do that because of how much I love him. Personally, I'm on the side of all of creation is saved anyway no matter what, but that other thought lingers, and I think God wants it that way. God was vague about what happens to the spirit of animals, seemingly intentionally. I wonder if this is why. We all know that creation is without sin because they were not given a way to choose sin as we humans were. And by the story by Nathan and the ewe lamb, a pet essentially, that the man cared for like a child, we know that this sort of deep love for animals was not uncommon even back in David's day. So naturally, people must have been wondering for most of human existence about what happens to animals, yet God remains vague about it. Why? I think probably for the same reason I am uncertain, because uncertainty gives us a reason to get to heaven because if the animal spirit is merely destroyed when the earth is destroyed, the only way that animal will have any chance of not merely disappearing into non-existence is if the person who cares about it makes it to heaven and pleads with God that since humankind has been judged and there is no humans anymore to concern about, then allow me to bring my dog back to me now because as we understand, creation is without sin because they were never given the understanding to sin, and they always remain obedient to God, and the life of all things is in God's hands, thus in his hands to return the animal's spirit to himself, and any other argument I can think to bring up. And it's not that God isn't sufficient. It's that it's not fair that a sinless thing is subjected unwillingly to decay and death and then should just disappear, and since there is nothing wrong with having the joy of loved ones in heaven with you despite God being sufficient, then what is wrong with having your pets with you despite God being sufficient. In the same way that having your loved ones in heaven will give you joy despite God being sufficient, so too will your pets give you joy despite God being sufficient.

 2020/11/1 5:13Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

i just happend to see this vid a couple of days ago, where John MacArthur was asked this question by a child.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96qgi6cza7c&t=62s

When there are trees that bear fruit 12 times a year and a river in the eternal kingdom, it would not wonder me if there were animals in heaven.

Maybe no fish, because the sea will be no more.

When there are trees, there must be soil, and soil needs microorganisms, unless God changes even that.

Well, it says in Rev 22:15 that the dogs are outside, but that does not apply to the dogs of the OP.

 2020/11/1 7:12Profile
NormStrong
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Joined: 2020/11/1
Posts: 2


 Re: narrowpath

"Maybe no fish, because the sea will be no more.

When there are trees, there must be soil, and soil needs microorganisms, unless God changes even that."

As God alters, or corrects, the DNA of the wolf so that it no longer needs meat, but grazes with the lamb, and the lion eats hay like the cow, it would be even less complex to also alter or correct the microorganisms so that they too only contribute to life rather than destroying it. Remember, all of creation was subjected to destruction against its will for our sake, and now it eagerly awaits the redemption of mankind so that it too can be delivered from this destruction.

 2020/11/1 13:43Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

Animals or not, we will be most fond of seeing Fathter and son in glory, with all the saints and angels. There will be the heavenly Jerusalem and still nations that live around.
Nature is now God's witness to the fallen world as Romans 1 states it. In glory we will have no need for this witness anymore though it would not surprise me if God would re-create nature without the inherent curse of futiliy that Adams sin caused. Sky, sun, moon and stars will disappear, but we will have a new heaven and earth. Gold and precious stones will still be there, but gold will be translucent.

I agree with NormStrong, there should be no beings that feeds on another being for sustainance because death is no longer there. We will consume fruit and leaves, but they will be replensished and not killed. All this applies to the new heaven and new earth. In the millenium we will have the old creation release from curse on the very same earth we inhabit now. In the glory there will be new heaven and earth.

 2020/11/1 15:18Profile





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