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ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi pastorfrin...

Quote:
Myth #1 Peace comes through war.

I find your [u]opinion[/u] on this issue quite fascinating. However, I am persuaded that this is merely an opinion on the matter.

What would you consider a "good soldier?" In your opinion (or belief), is it EVER justified to defend your family or country? In your opinion, is it ever right for a person to join the military?

I am not questioning your beliefs. However, I am interested in learning what your beliefs are and your rationale for such beliefs. I know some Mennonites and Society of Friends people who are quite "political" in their efforts to stay "non-political."

I must assert that pacifism comes quite easy in nations as blessed and secure as the United States, Canada or the UK. But what about believers in nations where persecution is very real and extreme? History has shown us that persecution for faith can easily increase in nations of pacifists.

Don't forget: Paul used the political and legal system of the Romans to take the Gospel into Rome (then capital of the world). He "appealed unto Caesar" -- citing his Roman citizenship -- rather than allowing himself to be released.

I am getting married soon. I have often questioned the Lord about what I would do if my future wife and future children would be placed in danger. How would I react? Should I, like the Amish, simply turn the other cheek while my children were raped and murdered? Should I simply struggle to detain while they fight to the death?

I am interested in this issue with an open heart. And I am quite interested in learning the various views from pure pacifists, semi-pacifists and non-pacifists. Our allegience, of course, if first to Christ. But do you believe that we have any sort of duty for our country? Is our nation worth fighting for? Are there any causes worth fighting for?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/3/8 2:15Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: A History Lesson

ccchhhrrriiisss, hope this answers some of your
questions.

The Council of Nicea: by Gavin Finley
THE PATTERN OF CHURCH-STATE
COMPROMISE IN CHRISTIANITY
WAS SET IN 325 A.D. AT NICAEA.
Compromise is an awful thing.
This is a well known fact to those who know of the God of the Bible. Warnings from the Old Testament prophets concerned idolatry with other gods. In the New Testament the Apostle Paul continued along the same line. He warned about mixing "the cup of Christ with the cup of devils". (1Cor.10:21)
As people who bear the Name of Christ we have been instructed to keep ourselves undefiled by the world. And our church leaders have an even greater responsibility to keep the faith in holiness and teach the pure doctrine that was first delivered to the saints. As representatives of Jesus Christ and His Body on earth we dare not make any dealings whatsoever on His behalf or on behalf of His church with the principalities and powers of this world. We see many such dealings in which church leaders 'sell out' the sovereign things of God to the princes of this world. These are impudent acts of disobedience. We dare not have anything to do with such acts of presumption. Because those who enter into such profane dealings will most certainly be brought to an awful judgment.
Alas, such scruples do not seem be a concern for many church leaders. Down through church history they have presumed to set themselves up as representatives and brokers of Christ here on earth before the world. Then in brazen self will they proceed to sell the holy things of God down the river. The holy things of God are then re-engineeered, re-packaged, and sold to the lowest bidder at the tables of Mammon. In this manner the Name of YHVH, our Judeo-Christian God is brought down to dirt level. This is the compromise that degrades our faith and brings grief to His Congregation of God.
What is wrong with this mixture of the holy with the profane? The answer is quite straightforward. The Body and blood of Christ is holy. The Name of our Lord Jesus is to be lifted up. It is not an ecclessiastical franchise to be bought and sold at the round tables of earthly politics. Nor is it to be sold in the seedy bazaars of and world trade.
The Jesus we love and serve is above all those things. His name is holy. He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. He is the God who became incarnate in Jesus Christ. He is to be consecrated in our hearts and lives. And His Body, the Congregation of YHVH-God, (the Church), is holy too. Or we should be. But the compromises of established Christendom, a body of people who supposedly follow Christ are many and varied. And the sad story goes on and on. Indeed ecclesiastical compromises with the princes of this world have continued unabated throughout the past 1700 years of church history.
How does this compromise happen? Christians enter into the Eternal Covenant they have with Christ. This is all very wonderful and good. But many Christian believers do not realise that by inviting Jesus into their life they have married Him. He is now their Husband, Protector, and Providence. In Christ they have entered into a holy and exclusive blood covenant relationship. They are now in a covenant relationship to the sovereign God, the Holy One of Israel, the Prince of Peace.
When Jesus began His ministry He was led of the Holy Spirit into the wilderness. There He faced three temptations. These were intended to defile His faith with God by adding a commitment to 1. the world, 2. the flesh and 3. the devil. Jesus passed these 3 tests. If He had failed He would have a defiled Himself and become a double agent for the world, a double agent for his own flesh, and a double agent for Lucifer, the angel of selfism.
How about us? How has the Body of Christ fared when faced with these same three temptations to compromise? Does the church defile herself with accomodation to the flesh for example?
Well we don't have to look very far to see the church even today is covering up and even "normalising" fornication and homosexuality inside the church. Most of the church accepts the wholesale abortion of millions of our unborn babies. Then we see church leaders brazenly invoking the Name of Christ as they try to sanctify "same sex marriages" between homosexuals and lesbians. This is truly amazing. The God whose Name they call upon and whom they suppose OK's the ordination of Sodomites is none other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the very same God who rained fire and brimstone on the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah! These church leaders are truly playing with fire. And unless they repent of this outrage they will surely get burned!
How about the covenants the church makes with the principalities and powers of the world system? Well again we don't have to look far to see where the church has behaved in the very same manner as Hosea's wife Gomer. The church has pursued her lovers and departed from Christ, her Husband, just as Gomer did with Hosea and Israel did with YHVH, the Holy One of Israel. And the church has made a practice of entering into deep carnal covenant relationships with political princes who are strangers to Christ. She forgets her true Husband, her Betrothed. And she accepts protection under the sword of her thorny secular lovers, the princes of this world.
This abnormal stste of affairs is considered quite normal. Through the centuries the church has accepted this earthly protection offered by secular political powers. At the same time she still claims total and absolute loyalty to Christ. These worldly rulers have typically presented themselves to the church as "Defenders of the faith". Thus the church has in effect married the political princes of this world. The church, thus established, still maintains that she is married to Christ as well!
How about our compromise with the devil? Again we see all too readily just how deeply the church has been compromised. Lucifer, who is the god of "self" practically runs this narcissistic, materialistic, and hedonistic culture. God's people in the western church have bought into this program of Luciferian selfism in a big way. "It's all about me" is the catchphrase of our time. And inside the church we buy the devil's lie that we can "Write our own (selfist Luciferian) ticket with God". No need to walk by faith being led by the Holy Spirit. No need to consult what God has said in the holy scriptures. We set the agenda here below. We are "little gods". We call the shots. We are 'sovereign' in our own right.
This is the religion which "sells" on the street today. This is the seedy debauched Christianity that pays its agents, the religious vendors of Mammon, so very handsomely.
God help us.
At His temptation Jesus answered the devil with these final words.
Pray God they may become our words as well.
"Get thee behind me Satan,
It is written,
Thou shalt worship the Lord your God,
And Him only shalt thou serve. -Mat.4:10
As a church, and as the congregation of God, we are truly presumptuous. In Christ's Name we are all too willing to make blood covenant pledges with the earthly powers of this world. How can we enter into blood covenant with angels of darkness when we have already made blood covenant commitment to Christ and to His Eternal Covenant? How can we put one foot in Jerusalem and the other foot in Babylon? Will holy history forever allow us to remain as agents for both?
Clearly this is quite impossible. Such duplicity and double dealing will eventually lead down a low road and into a terrible darkness.
It will become treason against the Kingdom of God. (John 5:43, 2Thes.2:3)
Jesus said,
No man can serve two masters.........
You cannot serve God and Mammon. -Mat.6:24
Just where does this sort of double dealing end up? The pathway of compromise will eventually lead to the ultimate betrayal, the epic future deal of Dan.9:27. This will lead on to the climax of humanistic wickedness, the 'abomination of desolation'.
This Dan.9:27 deal will start out with international intigue. It will call for a surrender of Israel's holy land and the church's holy faith and doctrine. And for what? For the sake of "peace and security" or "safety"? Apparently this will be the motive. But are we not safest when we are true to Christ? Is not Christ Jesus our covering, our fortress, our Protector? (Psalm 91)
Alas, Bible prophecy shows us clearly where all this compromise by God's people will end up. The climax of this age will see the people of God sitting down and making covenant with a man representing the key political powers of this world. He will be a person who initially appears to be a very wonderful global peacemaker. He will pledge to act as a protector of God's Judeo-Christian people. But this will be a lie and a trap. Three and a half years later he will break the covenant. (Dan.9:27b) At that time he will be possessed and be revealed as "the beast".
If we think about this final seven year covenant for a moment we realize that it will be the church's second and final great tragedy of compromise. It will be Nicea phase two!
This man in whom they put their trust will betray them. He will betray them grievously. Many of those who started out supporting this peacemaker will not turn back to Christ at this point. They have gone too far into compromise with him. The road they have chosen will lead them on into apostasy and perdition. This whole story has been prophesied in the books of Daniel and Revelation and by the Words of Jesus Himself. (John 5:43)
What are the consequences of compromise? Compromise alone is what brings grief and tribulation to the people of God. Our God is a faithful and true to the covenant He makes with his people. He is quite able to protect His people from their enemies. But He cannot do this when they have "two timed" Him and made other separate covenants with Him and the powers of darkness! They are no longer entirely in His hands! We have become double agents in a spiritual war! Michael, the guardian angel of God's people.(Dan.10:21) As usual, he is doing all he can for us and for Israel. But what if the evil angels that our angel Michael is battling have been loosed by us, the people of God? What then?
This future historic surrender of the sovereign things of God to a profane ruling prince is laid out quite clearly for us in Dan.9:27. This is what starts the drama of the final 7 years. This is the much discussed 70th week of Daniel.
The Dan.9:27 scripture, brought to us at great cost by our dear faithful prophet Daniel tells us the outcome of this epic compromise. This 'prince' with whom God's people will enter into covenant will turn out to be a false messiah. Three and a half years into this 7 year "covenant" this "prince who is to come" will put a stop to the true worship of our God. He will replace worship of the God of Israel with an unspeakable abomination. -Mat.24:15-21 He will then be "revealed" as "the beast" and set up his 666 worship/financial system. Along with the ten global rulers the antichrist will then proceed to double-cross the very same religious double dealers who had earlier compromised the cup of Christ at his table. They will have bent over backwards in order to accommodate the powers of this world. But God is not mocked. Those who have corrupted God's Word will reap what they have sown. They will be subjected to an awful judgement. (Rev.17:16-18)
THE COUNCIL OF NICEA MARRIES THE CHURCH TO ROME AND
ESTABLISHES A PATTERN OF COMPROMISE THAT WILL GO ON
TO ITS CLIMACTIC CONCLUSION IN THE END-TIME DRAMA.
Where did this pattern of compromise and dealmaking with earthly powers begin? Certainly not during the first three centuries of church history. At that time the church was under persecution. Christians were being executed in many ways including crucifixion and being thrown to the lions in the Roman arena. But nearly 17 centuries ago the persecutions against the church stopped. In 308 A.D. The Roman emperor Constantine had enacted the Edict of Milan. Then in 325 A.D. the elders of the Christian church received a summons to come to Nicea and sit at table with the Emperor Constantine personally. What a power trip and a power lunch that was! This historic meeting would come to be known as the Council of Nicea.
In terms of obtaining political protection and temporal power and influence for the church the Council of Nicea was a coup for those church leaders who were willing to compromise. But the spiritual fallout from this meeting was deadly. It can only be described as an awful tragedy. It was the first and truly the epic compromise for the church. The Council of Nicea set the pattern for the church-state compromise which continues to this day.
Let's pause for a moment here and take a closer look at just what happened at the Nicea accord. Before the Council of Nicea 10 Roman Caesars in a row had persecuted the early church. In the waning years of the third century these persecutions came to a vicious peak under the deadly pogroms of the Emperor Diocletian. After the his death the new Roman Caesar Constantine came to power. It was in 308 A.D. that Constantine issued the Edict of Milan. This effectively called a halt to the persecutions of Christians. In 325 A.D. Constantine went a step further. He invited the Christian bishops from all over the Roman Empire to what would come to be known as the Council of Nicea.
A lot of good issues were settled at that time. Resolutions were made against the Arian and other heresies. Here too was forged the Nicene Creed. But the political result of this epic meeting was an accord of peace between Roman Imperial power and the church. The church would not be the same afterwards. The church in effect married the Roman political powers. The Council of Nicea would forge a church-state accord which continues right up to this present day.
The church was not the only party to profit from the deal. It was a savvy political move for the Roman Caesar as well. People were getting bored with the soap opera of the gods of Greco-Roman mythology. Christianity under persecution was naturally on the ascendancy. Indeed this idea of a 'Saviour God' was beginning to capture the imagination of the masses. Constantine had the words, "god our saviour" inscribed on the shields of his soldiers. This new standard was a proven morale booster for his men and a battle winner as well. Then too the Roman persecutions against God's people, (as Balaam had discovered with ancient Israel), had actually been counterproductive. -Num.24 For every Christian martyred ten more new converts to Christianity popped up. These Christians and their new faith were invincible. The only hope of defeating them, again as Balaam found out, was to get them compromised with evil. Then their angels were unable to cover them. As long as the Christ' witness/martyrs were standing for the faith under deadly persecution, (as they tend to do), then the Christians had the glory. They had the glory, - and the emperors pagan priests did not. Christians were beginning to get sympathy from the crowds as they went up into the arena. In short, pagan religion was letting the emperor down badly in the glory and awe department. Truly the "Emperor had no clothes". It was time for the secular ruler of the world to trade up to better religious coverings. The question Constantine asked himself was this. Would the Christian leaders come to sit down and talk turkey with him? He sent out the invitations and waited.
Well some did come. And many did not. The deal he offered the responding Christian bishops at that time was to powershare. It was a very lucrative deal. He basically offered the church leaders an opportunity to "get in on the ground floor" and to divide up the rulership into church and state rulerships sectors. Here we have the iron and clay of Daniel's image at the legs and feet. Constantine offered Christianity "most favoured religion" status.
What was the result of this meeting at Nicea? "Many", or a quorum, if you will, of the Christian leaders took the bait. The result was that Christianity was "established". And it was thereby set up for compromise. Inevitably it was quickly corrupted as pagan religious leaders saw what power, influence and lucre could be gained by taking on the new name "christian". That maneuver gave them a license from the state to practice pagan religion as before. Only now they could do it inside the established Christian church. These pagan leaders, with a few adjustments to their religious repetoir came right on into the established church and took their places there. They brought with them their pagan beliefs and agenda, their hierarchical church structured programs and pagan temple architecture. For fear of the wrath of Constantine Christian elders decided not to make a fuss about all this. And so the rot set in.
Meanwhile, back home in the country, the true witness of Christ now became difficult for those faithful saints who did not approve or in many cases did not know what the church leaders had done. Persecutions followed for those Christians who did not "go up" to Nicea. Trouble followed for those who for reasons of holiness would not agree with this ecclesiastical political power grab. Many in the pilgrim church would have nothing to do with entering into any covenant with the Roman Caesar. Such faithful believers have existed in all time periods both in national Israel and in the church. They continue with us today. Their concern is holiness before God and being true to the faith. They are very very careful when it comes to dealings with political and religious agents of this present evil age. In scripture these faithful pilgrims are called, the "elect" or "the saints" or the "called out"/ekklesia/congregation/church of God. They can be found both inside and outside the established church. And they have existed in all ages.
Nicea was a watershed in church history. What was the result of this epic church-state deal in the west? Well as the centuries wore on, and particularly after Charlemagne came to power in 800 A.D. a paganised hierarchical christianity emerged. It was hardly worthy of the name of Christ. Only those who knew Latin, (the language of ancient Rome) could access the holy scriptures. This was a great and awful tragedy. All this darkness! Meanwhile, in the medieval villages our Jewish brethren were freely teaching their children to read the Torah in the Hebrew schools. And in the Arab nations their time of pre-eminence had come. They too were free to read from the Koran. Not so in "Christendom". Over in Europe the masses of so called "Christendom" were denied access to the Word of God. They were kept "manageable" by being ground down into the dirt of an ignorant peasantry. The 1,000 years that followed the Council of Nicea would see Europe or Christendom Europe go into the "Dark Ages". Spiritual gnorance was everywhere and in the spiritual vacuum fear and superstition emerged to haunt the forests and squalid medieval towns of Europe. The 1300's saw plague or the "black death" take the lives of half of the population of Europe. The Moors were ruling in the south of Spain and would do so until 1492. In the early 1500's over on the eastern borders of Christendom the Turks were closing in on Vienna.
Meanwhile, in the context of these critical events a German printer named Gutenburg developed a printing press using moveable type. As Martin Luther made his stand the scriptures were being printed in Germany. That would speed the reform in the church in central Europe. The 1500's also saw English evangelicals Tyndale and Coverdale following up on Wycliffe's work. They translated and printed the holy scriptures into English shipping them back across the channel for the English common man. These events saw the Light of God's holy Word go forth. And the lights began to turn on in Europe. The Renaissance broke forth in Italy. After a thousand years of darkness, a darkness that began with that awful compromise at Nicea, things were beginning to turn around.
Did all the church go up to Nicea to become the established religious power? Not at all. The true pilgrim church went underground. See the book 'The Torch of the Testimony' by John W. Kennedy of India. There were very few records preserved of the pilgrim church. And the things written about them by the established church was naturally not very complimentary. But they re-emerged among the reformers and the anabaptists in the 1400's. After a millennium of darkness, Gutenberg's printing press and the work of Bible translators brought the first glimmers of the gospel light back into mainstream Europe.
WILL THE FUTURE DAN.9:27 COVENANT WITH THE ANTICHRIST BE NICEA PHASE 2?
So much for church deals with secular kings and princes. Can we learn from this earlier church folly? Pray God we shall. Because the church may well be asked to revisit Nicea, at least in spirit, if not in the same geographical location. The church state deal we have at present is not compromised enough for the emerging secular powers of the New World Order. The coming global peacemaker, who is probably even now working behind the scenes will ask the established church to go even further into pagan and humanistic admixture. To participate, to profit, or even be licensed to operate legally, the church denominations may well be asked to mix the cup of Christ with all the other religions of the world. This concession will be called for in the interests of "unity", "inclusivism" and "world peace". This endtime renegotiating of the Nicean Accord to embrace not just Christianity but also Buddhism, Islam, Wicca and animism may well be on the agenda.
There is nothing new under the sun. Ah, yes. As the endtime drama opens up we may well be asked to "renegogiate" the Nicea deal. It will be 'decision time' for many Christian believers. But our God knows all about this.
He has told us this ahead of time. His desire is for His people to be forewarned and for us to be prepared in Him. He has made abundant provision for our witness. When we read the Great Commission" we see that it is actually an article of blood covenant promise of blessing and provision. It has been given to us by Jesus Christ Himself. God has promised to be with His people right up to the end of this evil age. By His divine grace and favour He stands ready to lead us on into a deeper covenant relationship with Him.
Through all this God has not forgotten His covenant people. He Himself will raise up a standard for the peoples. (Isa.62:10) The good news is that even in the midst of this end-time declension and apostasy God will be calling out His people once again. The trumpets will be sounding forth the alarm. God will be calling His people to assembly. They will be crying out to Him. Indeed there will be a magnificent, powerful, and holy end-time revival!
Now is the day of salvation.
Now is the time to draw near to Him.
Grace and shalom to all the saints.
________________________________________

 2007/3/8 16:05Profile
Pilgrimsway
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 13
Lawton, OK

 Re: We Need to Talk About Peace

I always will have a problem with threads and ideas such as this one. Many people here start quoting scripture and claiming "peace," but forget that the whole idea of peace is a concept of the world, not a concept of the Bible. The concept of "peace" that everyone tosses about is a fantasy. Scripture very plainly teaches it is never going to happen.

To paraphrase, why are their wars among us? Scripture very starkly teaches that we live in a fallen world and the leanings of the human heart is toward evil. Because of this, there will not be peace. There can never be peace until Jesus returns as reigning King.

So what is the Christian response? In my opinion, it is to follow the example and teachings that Christ gave, and to follow the full counsel of the Bible. The counsel of the Bible never tells us we will have peace in the terrestrial realm. With this in mind, I say never expect it while on the earth. To do anything else is to fall prey to false thinking, and to believe something non-scriptural. This is not thinking morbidly. It is thinking realistically. Reality is what it is, not what you hope it will be. Failure to grasp reality puts yourself at peril. Expect crime, expect evil, expect war...realizing complely that the only solution is in Jesus Christ.

I do not say these things flippantly. I am a 60% disabled veteran. I have asked and re-asked myself the same kinds of questions brought up here. There is only one answer, which is the one I have already stated.

Let us not forget that we are in much of the mess we are in right this moment because of the failure of the church. Islam could never have existed if the church had fulfilled its primary purpose of spreading the gospel, and not wedding itself to the world. The United States is in the mess it is in right now because of the failure of the church. Before worrying about world peace, we really need to be concerned about the sick condition of the church we are in right here.


_________________
Jon Dewey

 2007/3/8 17:31Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Chris wrote:

Quote:
But what about believers in nations where persecution is very real and extreme? History has shown us that persecution for faith can easily increase in nations of pacifists.



Brother Yun in Heavenly Man or Back to Jerusalem testifies that Americans are always praying that the government in China would fall. Then he said, "we do not pray that way." We have grown strong because of the persecution. We pray that God is glorified in all things.

Maybe freedom is a lie promoted by Satan...

What do you think?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/8 23:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Maybe the Lord is more glorified by one who is willing to go to jail rather then participate in war.

I often feel that war is used by God so that those who participate would cry out to Him. That He might show one the power of salvation...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/8 23:13Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Quote:
I always will have a problem with threads and ideas such as this one. Many people here start quoting scripture and claiming "peace," but forget that the whole idea of peace is a concept of the world, not a concept of the Bible.



Peace is given to those who enter His rest.

The world has a fallen view of that precept "peace." Scripture truly does bring "peace" because our Lord is the King of Peace.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/8 23:16Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:

Are we talking about the same thing?

I agree, and I would not try to kill, but in the heat of battle trying to stop a psycho from harming my family, I’m just not sure what would happen.

Once again let me say that I do not support needless killing, but being an EMT working on the bad side of town, I have seen situations that are not typical. There is a time for everything.

Quote:
Check out the book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? by David Bercot



Does this book say I should “try” to stop someone from harming my family, but to let us all die if that cannot be done without “permanently hurting” the psycho?

I would never intentionally “kill”, but I have seen people that took two tazer shots and four large police officers to subdue.

I’m not talking about being willing to die for Christ, or martyrdom. I’m talking about defending my family from drug crazed psychos.

I don't know if I could stop trying to help.

Are we talking about the same thing?


Peace be with you.

TJ



TJ,

It sounds like you have seen some horrible things. I can see why it would be hard for you to see were I'm coming from and I don't want to push me beliefs on you. I feel like I shouldn't say more about this issue, so God bless you with His truth no matter what the cost.

In Christ's love,

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/3/9 11:41Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Pacifism vs Biblical Nonresistance and My Testimony (edit)

As I read through this thread, I do not see where the issues of pacifism vs nonresistance is addressed. For many people these two concepts are one and the same, yet they are very different in its application to life and Biblical principles and therein lies the resistance many have towards this doctrine.

Pacifism differs from nonresistance. And here is a description as given by [the late] J. C. Wenger, a noted Mennonite scholar: When one turns away from theoretical considerations to actual life, however, he discovers that the terms pacifism and nonresistance are not always Synonymous. Guy F. Hershberger distinguishes pacifism from biblical nonresistance in four respects: (1) The pacifist may devote his labors to the abolition of war, making international peace his major goal, while the New Testament nonresistant is concerned primarily to bring men and women to the experience of "peace with God" through responding to the glorious gospel of Christ in repentance and faith. The ensuing relationship of peace-both with God and with men-is far deeper and more meaningful than the absence of warfare. (2) Pacifism as a movement does not always reckon as seriously as it should with the depths of sin in the human heart, and consequently, is overly optimistic about the possible abolition of war. (3) Pacifism sometimes fails to recognize the role of the threat of force in the peace-keeping function of the state -- in the preservation of law and order. In this task, the state functions as an agent of the wrath of God against sin, and even employs the threat of bodily harm if the evildoer resists. (4) Finally, the pacifist sometimes fails to see his role as one of absolute nonresistance and a willingness to suffer injustice, and to overcome evil with good, and he compromises an absolute position by "nonviolent resistance"-by behavior which is more Gandhian than Christian.

More can be read on this subject by J.C. Wenger at: http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html

Now for a brief explanation of my own pilgrimage in this area of nonresistance.

I was broguht up in the conservative Anabaptist tradition, taught that serving in the military is not for the Christian, but I also entertained doubts similar to ones raised on this thread. I asked our leaders these questions but nobody answered them to my satisfaction. And so life went on...until I was about 40 years old and I started to read brother Isaiah's writings. Up to this point I did not enjoy the OT prophets..thought they were so redundant in their message...I just did not get it. Understand?

Now, I had been taught the NT concepts were introduced to the Jewish people through the OT prophets, most noteably in Isaiah. An instructor in Jewish Evangelism at Bible School told us one can use the book of Isaiah to bring a person to the LORD. As a young woman I then wondered who on earth could ever understand that book! So I remained ignorant of Isaiah for many years..until one day the Holy Spirit inspired me to read it, study it. Wow! was I ever in for some surprises! Today, I count it among my favorite books in the Bible.

So I read Isaiah. Then I came to chapter 22: 5-11: 5: For it is a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains.
6: And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men and horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.
7: And it shall come to pass, that thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.
8: And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armour of the house of the forest.
9: Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many: and ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool.
10: And ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses have ye broken down to fortify the wall.
11: Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
Here God is chiding them for depending on their defenses to protect them from the enemy.

Fast forword to chapter 30:1,2:"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!". Hmmm, now God challenged their act of trusting in a foreign nation for their protection. This concept is detailed more plainly in chapter 31:1: "Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong;, but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Now if you wil go to chapter 36, you read in detail how Rabshakeh tried to get Hezekiah to submit to their aggression. They played an fascinating game of intimidation and persuasion. But Hezekiah remained silent and they went before the LORD in prayer who then supernaturally delivered Judah from this idoltrous nation.

Now I read this and was stunned at the concepts I read in the OT, of all places. So I did some more checking...did God command Judah after Isaiah's ministy to go to battle against anyone? I read the Chronicles, Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah, and Esther - all books of history. The only time one reads of mass revenge taken by the Jews upon their enemies was after they were in Babylon, as recorded in Esther. But this was not a command given by God. What I did find was that the time after Isaiah the history deals primarily with the spiritual condition of Judah: their apostasy and revivals. That is all. God did not ever again tell them to go to battle and "I will give them into your hand."

Jesus comes on the scene some 400 years after Malachi and what he said about peace: "He that takes the sword shall persih by sword" made a lot of sense when you compare what Brother Isaiah said hundreds of years earlier.

Now, how do we respond to the need to protect us from evil men? This is one of the most often asked questions. Perhaps another one might be in order: how often are godly people victims of violent crimes, like rape, murder, robbery? Very seldom. Very few are the incidents of godly people being victimized by acts of violence. Does this not demonstrate God's protecting hand on his children? that we do not have to resort to violence to protect ourselves? And if a godly person does get killed, what is so bad about that? But the children you ask? Do they not belong to God, and is God not big enough to take care of them? Many children from godly homes have been victims of accidents and no one is questioning God about this!

Anyhow, this is my testimony...sorry it is so long. I hope it will challenge any here who have questions and doubts...and if you still wonder whether I believe heaven will be denied to one who serves in the military, all I can say is I do not know...this decision belongs to God.

(And for your info we had a son who served in the Guard as 1LT. and three sons who did not serve in the military.)

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/3/9 15:01Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
It sounds like you have seen some horrible things.



I have seen some things that were…unpleasant to say the least, but the bad stuff is not seeing them get shot with tazers, it’s what they were doing before hand. The worst part would have been if he would have got to go do it again.

Quote:
I can see why it would be hard for you to see were I'm coming from...



I believe I do see where you are coming from if you are trying to walk in Christ’s footsteps and follow his lead to the best of your understanding…being a Christian.

Quote:
I feel like I shouldn't say more about this issue...




That is the usual response to the situation I described.


Thanks for your time. God bless


_________________
TJ

 2007/3/10 9:56Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Peace

Brothers and Sisters,
I would like to thank each one of you for your comments on this thread. I am sure you are wondering why I have not replied personally to any individual post. May I say all your thoughts are important and I have given thoughtful reflection to each one, thus my aspiration for this thread; as we speak to individuals we seem to go into an I’m right and your wrong mode. We find ourselves striving one with another and this is not good.
If we can direct our comments to the whole group we tend not to go on the defensive and this gives all of us a chance to listen and then to contemplate on what one another is saying.
James 1:19-20
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: [20] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

The Holy Spirit convicted me of this very thing and I did not like the picture He showed me of myself.
Let our speech be always holy, gracious, courteous, respectful, seasoned with brotherly love, and worthy of all to remember.

Now to the matter at hand; please allow me to reiterate for those who have only read the title of this thread and believe we are talking about world peace. We are talking about His Peace.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There will be war and not peace until the glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ when He shall destroy the promoter of war with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thes. 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Jesus himself said there would be war and rumors of wars until His coming.
Matthew 24:6-7
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Mark 13:7-8
And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. [8] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Notice Jesus said you would hear of war and rumors of wars, He did not say we as His disciples were to be a part of them.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 8:5-6
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

2 Cor. 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Our peace comes from God.
Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 1:3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 1:2
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephes. 1:2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philip. 1:2
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col. 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thes. 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thes. 1:2
Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Tim. 1:2
Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Tim. 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

He is our God of peace.
Romans 15:33
Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Philip. 4:9
Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1 Thes. 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 13:20-21
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, [21] Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

It is this peace of God we receive that relieves us from fret and worry.
Philip. 4:6-7
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

This is the peace that is to rule in our hearts.
Col. 3:15-17
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. [16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I guess the question is then, if He has given us His Peace can we then turn and use it to
destroy our enemies?
Again Jesus said: John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Is not the key words here My servants. May we ask ourselves the question, who’s servant are we?

Do you have this peace, His peace, the peace that passeth all the worlds understanding?

Grace and peace be unto you all, from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pastorfrin

Ps. Next: Myth #2 War is the price we must pay for freedom. Look up these words in the scriptures. Bond, free, servant, and servants.

 2007/3/10 11:24Profile





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