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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Do you believe that the out pouring spoken of by Joel and Peter were for that generation only?


Jeff
My answer to this in contained in your question. Joel predicted and Peter identified an 'outpouring'. The consequence of this was not that individual prophets as Joseph and Joel would arise; that had always been true. The distinctive of the era that Peter heralded was [b]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, [u]I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh[/u]: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (Act 2:17-18 KJV)[/b]

What had been occasional and sporadic in earlier days was to become the 'norm' in this 'outpouring' of God's Spirit... men, women, sons, daughters, servants, hand-maidens...

No I don't believe that Peter spoke only his generation. The Christian era stretches,as done Peter's first declaration, from the Day of Pentecost to the Day of the Lord.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/12/21 4:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
No I don't believe that Peter spoke only his generation. The Christian era stretches,as done Peter's first declaration, from the Day of Pentecost to the Day of the Lord.



In my study of Scripture, I have begun to search for the evidence of God's work in the believer. The examples given to us of individual's mentioned in Scripture testify to where each man or women has made the subject of their faith evident. Like in 1 John, this book, to me describes a self analysis that each believer is called to perform on one self.

Now, you have asserted first that the nature of God's grace differs according to dispensations. Secondly, you have asserted that the promise of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was not only to the generation of the Apostles but in each generation that has followed for these last 2000 years.
And that this outpouring correctly signifies the beginning of the New Covenant dispensation.

So my question then is: Where is the testimony of the New Covenant grace, primarily, the promise of visions, dreams, and prophesy, in today's generation?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/21 14:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So my question then is: Where is the testimony of the New Covenant grace, primarily, the promise of visions, dreams, and prophesy, in today's generation?



Now there's the question. The cessationists have their answer but mine would be different. It is so easy for Christianity to settle into sterile patterns. It has always been the way. I am blessed to be part of a congregation where prophecy is a regular part of our church life. Dreams and visions are less common but not entirely absent.

This is part of John Wesley's sermon, "The More Excellent Way, "It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian; and, from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honour upon the Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian Clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not, as has been vulgarly supposed, "Because there was no more occasion for them," because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, "the love of many," almost of Christians, so called, was" waxed cold." The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens; The Son of Man when He came to examine His Church, could hardly "find faith upon the earth." This was the real cause why the extra-ordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were to no longer be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned heathens again, and had only a dead form left."

The abiding injunction is
[b]But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. 1Co 12:31 NASB)[/b]

[b]But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. (1Co 13:13-14:1 NASB)[/b]

those chapter divisions often do us a real disservice. This is one of the few times I quote the RSV [b]So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. [u]Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts[/u], especially that you may prophesy. (1Co 13:13-14:1 RSVA)[/b]



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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/21 16:29Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
he real cause was, "the love of many," almost of Christians, so called, was" waxed cold." The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens; The Son of Man when He came to examine His Church, could hardly "find faith upon the earth." This was the real cause why the extra-ordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were to no longer be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned heathens again, and had only a dead form left."



Now this is a sobering statement! We hear so much of the 'prophetic' and the like, yet Wesley seems to be indicating here that it sould be a matter of coarse for Christians to live at a 'prophetic' level. I don't mean that in the flakey sense, but in the sense that God was revealing Himself to the people in a way that made Himself 'very real' to them. Do you have anything you would share with us to help us understand the Biblical model of what our Christian life should be like in terms of prophesy and the like?

Quote:
The cessationists have their answer but mine would be different.



I am all ears. :-)

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/21 16:47Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Br. Ron wrote two posts ago:

Quote:
What had been occasional and sporadic in earlier days was to become the 'norm' in this 'outpouring' of God's Spirit... men, women, sons, daughters, servants, hand-maidens...



Then Br. Ron quoted Wesley:


Quote:
This is part of John Wesley's sermon, "The More Excellent Way, "It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian; and, from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby, heaped riches and power and honour upon the Christians in general, but in particular upon the Christian Clergy.



It is not my intention to argue but to question the essense of what we teach.

The quote from Wesley seems to contradict your earlier statement concerning the nature of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/22 14:45Profile





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