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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert writes Jesus Christ (Yeshua) is the ONLY true Israel as HE is the promise, the covenant, the lamb, the priest, etc.

I LOVE this statement, although I don’t know why you have chosen to call Him by a name that is never used in the New Testament, not even in Hebrews.

You continue That is pretty clear; but why do the Gentiles now believe the Jews rejected their Messiah and the Gentile Church is now "Israel?" The problem as my studies have led me to see is that God intended that the root remain the root and the remnant of elect Jews would always be the natural branches and the elect Gentiles would be the "grafted in" branches. What we have now is a tree loaded with grafted in (or "taped on" if they are "almost Christians"); but where is the bulk of that remnant?

There is no such thing as ‘the Gentile church’, nor is there a Jewish church, nor an American church, nor a British church, nor a church of the 21st century, nor tomorrow’s church. There is just one church; the Church of Jesus Christ. Local expressions of that church similarly cannot be gentile, jewish, American, or British. If they are genuine churches they are churches where ‘two’ has become ‘one’.[Eph 2:14] To recognise any other identifying features in a church is to make the error that Peter made when he was roundly rebuked by Paul.

Here is a simple multiple choice question, you are only allowed to tick one box; [color=0033FF]Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:[/color] 1 Corinthians 10:32 Which group do you belong to?

BTW you have still not defined what you mean by the ‘root’. Your statement can make no sense without such a definition.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/3/15 14:04Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

***PRAYER***

Lord I just ask that you would intevene. Father God, why it is that your Church takes such a posture towards each other? Is this the Love by which we are all to be known? Why are your people looking to beat their swords? Why is it that we cannot have a meaningful conversation without people trying to split every hair and exegete every verb and syntax of a mortal mans words? Lord draw your sword I pray and discern the thoughts and intents of the hearts of those who so handily resist any real and meaningful conversation about your people Yisrael! Oh God how my heart aches for this.....


After posting this prayer I was convicted to tone it down and realize that its the enemies job to cause us to misunderstand each other and shoot fiery darts into our hearts. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood. God help me be more discerning. Uncle Screwtape and cousin Wormwood are well at work (Screwtape Letters; C.S. Lewis)!




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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/15 14:40Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert
It is best to pray such prayers behind closed doors.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/3/15 14:56Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

You would seek to roadblock a thread that He Himself has laid on my heart to bring an awareness of His people the Jews! (I deleted a few sentences that were a little strong). It was all a misunderstanding.

-Robert



*****call unto Me and I will answer thee***

And answer me He did. Again, I felt quite convicted to tone it down and to apologize for my defensiveness. The enemy likes to sow discord among us and twist words into a mess. I think C.S. Lewis would have called this a letter from uncle Screwtape!


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/15 15:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Beloved,

Can we realize that we have the identity of Jesus Christ and there is no need to protect our own? Let us go out of the camp following Him… bearing His reproach, for here we have no continuing city. The lepers were put out of the camp and as we follow Christ and take on His identity we will likewise suffer with Him and suffer similar reproach. Why the fear? Why the concern? The truth will set us free and so long as we tell the truth about these issues as well as we know them we can have a fuller understanding of these things.

How bad does the enemy hate the Jews? (6,000,000 dead in WWII). I am of German descent (Wurtz?) and I have known German WWII veterans who denied what happened with the Jews. Many of them see the cross (oh how unfortunate) as a sword dipped in 2000 years of their blood. The history speaks for itself.

I personally believe the enemy would do anything to stop the Church from knowing the plight and history of the Jews and their relationship to the Church and getting to a place where they can WITNESS to them effectively. Knowing the history allows you to be sensitive and knowledgeable to what they already know and it helps understand the obstacles ahead. Do you have any Jewish friends?

That is what this thread was started for. Not to debate. When you don’t fight the real enemy you will fight each other. I am not hear to debate or bicker or argue. I have a God birthed desire to see the Jews won to Christ and I know I have some info that you can use to make it a reality in your circle of relationships.

God bless and Much brotherly love,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/15 16:02Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert
I have wept my way through Auschwitz (twice) and Mydanek too. You will not need to instruct me on the abominable treatment of the Jewish race. But if you tell me that Christianity ought to be more Jewish you will have to give chapter and verse.

This is a forum not a pulpit, and you will need to be willing to prove your points. 10 times in the Acts it tells us that Paul 'dialogued'. Conversation and discussion are not one way streets. I hold no animosity towards you or your views; God who knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, is my witness. But you will not serve your cause by increasing the volume if your arguments are weak.

As I may not get back to this thread for a while I will answer my own question. The 'root' referred to by Paul is 'Abraham-type faith'; not a racial progenitor. This was the original obligation of the physical descendents of Abraham. They were required to be circumcised AND to walk in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.[Rom 4:12] The natural branches were broken off because of unbelief and can be grafted back in by faith, not because they are physical descendents of Abraham. Likewise people from a Gentile background are grafted in because of faith and can be removed if they do not believe.

In Rom 3:22 and 10:12 tells us that there is 'no difference between Jew and Greek'. The church of Jesus Christ is not an extension of the Jewish church but 'one new man'. In the 'church' the dividing hedge that separated Israel as a nation has been broken down. It is neither Jewish nor Gentile. His is OUR peace who hath made of twain, one new man.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/3/15 16:37Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Bro. Ron,

I am in no wise here to convince anyone that they should be more Jewish. These things enrich our understanding and give the right context of the early Church. We are and will remain in the calling wherewith the Lord has called us. Is any man circumcised...

I would only add to your comments concerning the "root" that you have described what I would call the "how" or "what" and I described the "who." We are heirs of the righteousness of God that is by faith. For the promise was not unto seeds but unto His Seed, which was Christ (Galatians 3:16). And the Israel of God are those who are in Christ through faith (... you bear not the root, but the root you). Who was that faith in? It was in the promised seed (which was Christ). So we see then it is not faith in our faith... but faith in the promised Seed which was Christ.

There is certainly only ONE Lord, ONE faith, and ONE baptism, etc. My "Gentile Church" (in quotes) caused the confusion admittedly. What I mean is the Church that is almost exclusively Gentile in 2004, while it was 100% Jewish in 40 CE. It has nothing to do with ethnicity- though make no mistake, I believe God desires for the true Israel of God to be (as they have been) a light of the Glory of God in the earth. How do you explain their perseverance otherwise? This does not mean that God is a respector of persons. But we must realize that the Jews need to hear the Gospel in a way that they will receive it.

My plans were to go out on a limb and demonstrate BOTH sides as for why the majority of Jews are so far from Christ. To the Jew first then to the Gentile... hmmmm. not in our generation.

Obviously you have been in some major discussions about this before that have caused you to be somewhat cautious about the post. I appreciate that. I also would prefer not to become the whipping boy :-D for any ill feelings from past arguments. I have been there. Not fun! In other words, I wish not to be a point of contact with which to vent differences with Messianic Judaism. They are who they are. I am a Christian (Pentecostal) and wanting to see Revival and souls saved in ALL camps. :-)

I apologize and repent OPENLY and PUBLICLY for coming across too strong. I don't want to preach. I don't want to argue. YOU Bro. Ron have the knowledge to help make this thread more meaningful than I ever could alone. Lets work together shall we? Were bretheren. Maybe I was acting a bit like James and making a case for the Jews for a minute. But we can balance each other.

God Bless and Much Brotherly Love,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/15 17:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert
you write Obviously you have been in some major discussions about this before that have caused you to be somewhat cautious about the post.

No I haven't been in major (or even minor) discussions but I have been doing some major thinking and meditating on the topic for several decades.

As regards your apology...2Cor 2:10,11. In other words, as much as it lies with me I forgive with all my heart. I am away now for a few days so I won't be able to contribute or interrupt. :-P


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Ron Bailey

 2004/3/15 17:56Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
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 Re: the root

Perhaps we can get back on track here and since we are talking about roots and branches please lets remember that the fruit of the Spirit is love.

Quote:
what is the root?



In studying this matter I found the following from Vincents Word Studies on Romans 11:16-17;

Both the first-fruits and the root represent the patriarchs (or Abraham singly, compare Rom_11:28). The holiness by call and destination of the nation as represented by its fathers (first-fruits, root) implies their future restoration, the holiness of the lump and branches...The Jewish nation is a tree from which some branches have been cut, but which remains living because the root (and therefore all the branches connected with it) is still alive. Into this living tree the wild branch, the Gentile, is grafted among the living branches, and thus draws life from the root. The insertion of the wild branches takes place in connection with the cutting off of the natural branches (the bringing in of the Gentiles in connection with the rejection of the Jews). But the grafted branches should not glory over the natural branches because of the cutting off of some of the latter, since they derive their life from the common root. ?The life-force and the blessing are received by the Gentile through the Jew, and not by the Jew through the Gentile. The spiritual plan moves from the Abrahamic covenant downward, and from the Israelitish nation outward?

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/3/15 18:18Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

[b][size=small]THE Jewish Freedom Movement[/size][/b]
[size=xx-small]by Robert Wurtz II[/size]


Merton Hengel in his book "the Zealots" sheds some light on the scene in the time of Jesus through the works of Josephus and others concerning the unrest that existed in the area of Galilee and other places. As far as I know, the term "Zealot" is first mentioned in the New Testament Gospels. It is found first here before any other writings. Simon the "Zealot" was one of Jesus' disciples. The Zealots were founded by Judas the Galilean and Zadok (Saddok) the priest. Judas of Galilee is mentioned to have been killed by an uprising in Acts 5:37. The "prototype" of the Zealots was Phinehas (Numbers 25:6-13). The Galileans had a reputation for their rebellion against Rome and had a certain accent that gave them away when they spoke (Mark 14:70). When we talk about resistance movements I think we can list at least the :Galileans, Sacarii, and Zealots. Some blur them together, but it is hard to go back and accurately reconstruct each movement. VOLITILE was the situation in Israel because of these movements. Some of them believed to pay tribute to Ceasar was paramount to paying him a "tithe" and therefor acknowledging him as deity. That, to them, was a breach of the 1st Commandment. Remember the questions about paying tribute directed towards Jesus? That was part of it. Zealots and Galileans hated the publicans. They collected taxes for Rome and were considered traitors. Imagine how awesome Jesus would have had to have been to keep the peace between all of those men when Matthew was a Publican?

God Bless.

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/15 20:23Profile





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