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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 spirit, soul & body

I got in to a discussion about soul, spirit. fleash, last night at my bible study on a tangent.
I would like to study this with y'all.

We know that they are distinguishable from this verse, [b]1Thes 5:23[/b] [color=990000]And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole [b]spirit[/b] and [b]soul[/b] and [b]body[/b] be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I think that I need to distinguish the three parts seperratly by seing what happens at the time of death:

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death, spirit for body - [b]Eccl 12:7[/b] [color=990000]Then shall [b]the dust return to the earth[/b] as it was: and [b]the spirit shall return unto God[/b] who gave it.[/color]
[b]James 2:26 [color=990000]For as the body without the spirit is dead[/b], so faith without works is dead also.[/color]
spiritual death, spirit from God - [b]Isa 59:1-2 [color=990000]But your iniquities have [b]separated you between and your God[/b], and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.[/color]
Jesus died physicaly & Sprirtualy on the cross.
Jesus died Spiritualy when He cryed, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.
Jesus died physicaly when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.

Whowever the body with out the soul is not scriptural;
A soul dies by being in hell with the body:
[b]Matthew 10:28[/b] [color=990000]And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to [b]kill the soul[/b]: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [b]both soul and body in hell.[/color]

James 5:20[/b] [color=990000]Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall [b]save a soul from death[/b], and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/color]
[b]Rev 16:3[/b] [color=990000]And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living [b]soul died[/b] in the sea.[/color]

So now, what is the soul compaired to the spirit?
I think the soul is who you are naturaly and the spirit is what keeps the soul and body alive, however, the term life needs to be defined since one can be spiritualy dead but still physicaly alive.
This is another discussion for later

 2007/3/3 12:49Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re: spirit, soul & body

This is the first part.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

What is present with the Lord?

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What is become new? Spirit, created being to a birthed being.

What is saved? Soul and Body, How? By the Spirit of Christ in us we are saved, no longer a created soul and body owned and operated by the created being of this world as an angle of light, Satan himself. "Old things passed away", Satan our old created father, out, defeated at the Cross and Christ in us the Hope of Glory, that is the Spirit of the living God birthed in us not created old thing. All things have become New. A new Spirit, A new mind being renewed and A new body on resurrection morning.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, (Spirit) and doth deliver: (Soul)in whom we trust that He will yet deliver [us];(Body)


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/4 21:49Profile









 Re: spirit, soul & body

Hi Logic,

I don't have a lot of time to come back and discuss this from scripture, but I want to put this thought to you, that [b]Christ died to save our souls[/b], that they should be clothed with new bodies after we are raised from the dead, as He had a new body which was so unrecognisable that those who'd known Him before, didn't 'know' it was Him.

I agree that 'spirit' - the breath of God - gives life. There is a word for this in the Hebrew, which RonB expounds in an old thread I started. If you're interested, I'll dig it up for you. This spirit that gives physical life, is no longer eternal.

For the eternal life of the soul (and the body with which it will be clothed on high), the whole man needs to be brought back into fellowship with God, through man's appropriation of the solution to sin, namely, faith in the death, resurrection and life of Jesus Christ today.

What I'm suggesting is this: sin is [i]spiritual[/i] and specifically affects how a body feels and wants to behave. The acts of sin which a body does, which a person may control by the keeping of laws, doesn't deal with the sin-spirit which drives it, and is causing it to decay day by day, despite its breathing for a season. This sin-spirit is beyond fallen human control.

That's why God had to send Jesus to kill it once and forever. After this, it is possible for any man or woman to receive the Holy Spirit, which brings not only fellowship with God, but LIFE back into the physical body and enough driving strength (dunamis) to conquer personal sin. In fact, unless a Christian not only receives forgiveness for sins past, but also appropriates this power to live in the light, cleansed inwardly by the blood of Jesus Christ, he will go on sinning and will neither receive or inherit the kingdom of God (which 'is within', according to Jesus).

After receiving the Holy Spirit, we are to show forth our faith, which is otherwise invisible to the onlooker, by our works; works which are only possible through faith, which God has planned for us to do.

If you read the New Testament looking out for this thought, you'll meet it more often than you expect. (Or, at least, I did!) It is [i]these works[/i] which have a lasting effect on the state of a soul, so that when the soul is separated from the body at death, it and the spirit which has now been joined by the Holy Spirit to God since new birth, go to be with God. (We 'fall asleep in Jesus'.)

What I'm saying is, that as we who have received the power to walk in newness of life, DO ACTUALLLY WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE, our souls are being saved and not only being saved by His life, but are being [i]transformed[/i].

Because I believe 'the soul' is God's way of defining everything about us in a uniquely individual format, I don't believe it's helpful for Christians to talk about 'laying down' their 'soul life'. What they are really talking about, is living a completely new way, where their flesh is no longer in control. I'm not disputing that this is a battle, but, it is a battle over the soul's survival - the soul which God died to preserve to a better hope.

It should not be a battle in which the soul's [i]destruction[/i], is [i][b]intended[/b][/i], which is the way many people seem to view it, perhaps because of Watchman Nee's terminology. (I wonder if this might be an error of thought-[i]translation[/i], rather an error of Watchman Nee's thought (if you see what I mean).)

In Christ, the soul is already redeemed completely, and the battle is for its [u]transformation[/u] into the likeness of Christ's.

Christ put the power of His body only into doing and speaking what His Father gave Him, and so should we. This is the submission to God's will which we seek, and for which we battle individually.

To illuminate this thought further, let me show you how the thought-meaning of one verse is changed completely, depending on which (of two legitimate English options) choice of word is made.

Romans 8 (NKJV)
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors -- not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if [u]by[/u] the Spirit [u]you[/u] [b]put to death the deeds of the body[/b], you will live.

'you will live' = your soul will live

The problem with the above 'by' is that it sounds as if we are supposed to instruct the Spirit of God to do the putting to death of the deeds of the body.

The same verses in the KJV had a different [i]feel[/i]

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if [u]ye[/u] [i][b]through the Spirit[/b][/i] [u]do mortify the deeds of the body[/u], ye shall live.

ye = plural you

Maybe it's just me, but 'through the Spirit' conveys to me that I have to do the work, but with the Spirit's power aiding me.

This ties in with other times when 'keep yourself' or 'keep yourselves' also puts the onus on the believer to do the work, but, there is no expectation that such work could be successfully achieved, [i]without[/i] the help of the Holy Spirit empowering our spirit.

I think there is also something of [i]desire[/i] in our spirit.

Have you ever heard 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'?

Well, this is where the rubber hits the road... in the question of which desires are going to prevail in the [u]actual[/u] outworking of the life we now have in our bodies, through the Holy Spirit. This will determine whether our soul is saved [i]in the end[/i], or not.


Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

You said Jesus' spirit died. I don't think this is scriptural, in that He chose to give it up - or let it go - when He did, thus committing His [u]body[/u] to death.

 2007/3/5 6:54
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

You said Jesus' spirit died. I don't think this is scriptural, in that He chose to give it up - or let it go - when He did, thus committing His [u]body[/u] to death.



As I said, death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.

Jesus was separated from God the Father when He cryed, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Him being seperated from the Father.
That is spiritual death.

When He chose to give His Spiirt up was the physical death.

 2007/3/5 15:44Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

To be in the body is to be present with the Lord also.

In Christ's body, He said He and the Father are One. The same must be true of Him as us. To be absent from the Body is to be Present with His Father. How long does this take? The twinkling of an eye.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

We are one in Him, He is One in the Father always has been and always will be. This is Spirit. The Only thing God left was the flesh and mind, that is the body and soul of Jesus Christ. Spirit is eternal will not separate the Trinity. Their Union is perfect and cannot be separated.

Christ and I are one. Satan and I were one.
Christ and the Father are One always. If I died without being saved satan would still be my spirit. If I die being saved Christ would still be my Spirit. The same for Christ as the Son of God. "It is finished"

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Were Jesus and the Father still One? The only answer is Yes. The only thing God forsook was the flesh and mind, body and soul of Christ.

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one. The Father Is Spirit.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/6 4:21Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Christinyou, Are you saying that Jesus never tasted death fully for us"?
Are you saying that Jesus never Spiritualy died?

Isn't it that when one is seperated from God, one is spiritualy dead?
what realy happend when His Father forsook Him?

 2007/3/6 9:25Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
This sin-spirit is beyond fallen human control.


I've never heard of the "sin-spirit" Please validate this term from Scripture.

 2007/3/6 11:50Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

We are separated from God spiritually since Adam. Our father spiritually before regeneration is satan. Jesus did not have satan in Him. He Spiritually was always One with the Father. The flesh of Jesus did die, that was the sacrifice. God is Spirit and Christ is God and incarnate man. If Christ died Spiritually, how did he speak to those that were in the bosom of Abraham while His Body was in the tomb? The Spirit is eternal, or those that are satans' will not live eternally in his presence. Just like we will live eternally in Christ with God the Father. This is part of the mystery Paul had revealed to Him. Even while we yet live, Christ is in us. Now our spirit is eternally with Christ and the Father, where we are already seated in heavenly places with God. Will our spirit die? No. Did the Spirit of Christ who already was God die? No.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/6 12:24Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
We are separated from God spiritually since Adam. Our father spiritually before regeneration is satan. Jesus did not have satan in Him.


Being dead spiritualy doesn't mean haveing satan in you.
Quote:
He Spiritually was always One with the Father.

Not when, on the cross, His Father forsook Him, that is the only time Jesus call His Father "God".
Quote:
If Christ died Spiritually, how did he speak to those that were in the bosom of Abraham while His Body was in the tomb?

He was only forsaken untill He cyed, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit"(Luk 23:46)
Because that is when He called God his Father again.
Quote:
Did the Spirit of Christ who already was God die? No.


This is a mystery that we must grasp. Jesus must have tasted death fully(spiritualy & physicaly) in order that we may not.

Pray for wisdom on this while you read about Jesus' time on the cross.
I am fully persuaded this doctrin is correct.

Relise that When His Father forsook Him, was His spiritual death.
The only time that Jesus called His Father "God".

Sinners can only call our father "God", Jesus was made sin for us that we may be made the righteousness of God in him.

 2007/3/6 13:59Profile









 Re: spirit, soul and body


Hi Logic,

You asked

Quote:
I've never heard of the "sin-spirit" Please validate this term from Scripture.

I was trying to make a separation between the spirit which enlivens the flesh physically, and the spiritual power of sin and death, which, without reference to the life in a person's body, was destroyed by Jesus on the cross, as we witness when He cried 'It is finished.'

I agree 'sin-spirit' is not a scriptural term, and maybe some people would say there is no difference between it and the life of the flesh. But, since we don't die physically, after we have been grafted into the death of Christ through faith (Rom 6:5), it seemed reasonable to make a difference in the terminology.

This is consistent, I think, if you consider a person's life who never is grafted into His death or His life, who when their body finally dies, has no hope of eternal life and a resurrection body.

 2007/3/6 15:38





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