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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Man's Will

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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Example 2:
Johnny is walking down the street when a net is lowered on him and he cannot move or escape. (I know…poor Johnny) A robber comes out of the shadows, takes Johnny’s wallet and runs away.
One might say, “The robber took the wallet against Johnny’s Will because Johnny never had a chance to decide therefore Johnny’s Will was violated.” It is true that Johnny never had a chance to make a choice and it is for that very reason that Johnny’s Will was not violated. The Will was never brought into the event. Johnny never had an option to choose so therefore he never had his Will violated. The Will manifests itself in the action of choosing, where there is choice there is no action. A sad event occurred in Johnny’s life, but his wallet was not taken against his Will.

I hope that I have shown that a man’s Will is never violated in the course of human events. He is always free to choose what he most desires—as long as the ability to choose is present. With regard to man’s Will, man has the freedom to choose, but is always in bondage to his desires. Thus man’s Will is free, yet bound.

I now want to prove that God does not violate man’s Will when He sovereignty chooses men to become Christians—for this is a common objection to Reformed Theology in that many say it makes men to be nothing more than robots. When God calls a sinner to repentance, He does not violate that sinners Will.



The disagreement I have is that with your example you seem to imply a person is 'changed' before they have the ability to choose (confronted with the Gospel). Am I reading you wrong? Can you show an example in the NT that someone was converted before they heard the Gospel?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/3/2 14:11Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Jeannette wrote:

Quote:
A couple of interesting posts Jay! I'm beginning to be clearer on where you are coming from. At first I did wonder if you were a hyper-Calvinist, probably because you were defending Calvinism so strongly in one or two other threads.



Well, I am glad I showed that I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I wonder how many others think I am a hyper-Calvinist. For all those who are reading...I am not a hyper-Calvinist.

Quote:
That possibility is no longer a personal one to greatly fear, but seems to be the most likely explanation for certain things, such as the fate of King Saul, (it actually says that when the Holy Spirit came upon him he was "turned into another man") or possibly Solomon who turned to idolatry in later life. Also, in these days, the apostacy of certain former Christian leaders, some of whom have turned to error and led many astray after them.



Are you referring to 1 Samuel 11:6? "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

PreachParsly wrote:
Quote:
The disagreement I have is that with your example you seem to imply a person is 'changed' before they have the ability to choose (confronted with the Gospel). Am I reading you wrong? Can you show an example in the NT that someone was converted before they heard the Gospel?



I should have been clearer on this. In my 'net falling on Johnny' example I am not trying to show that God changes someone before they hear the gospel. I was trying to show that in situations where someone cannot choose, their Will is not violated.

For salvation, I am not saying that God changes a person before they hear the gospel. I am saying that God changes a person through the hearing of the gospel. The gospel must be preached...this is the external calling by which God employs man to spread his word. It is in the external calling of the gospel being spoken that God inwardly calls. When God inwardly calls a person he reveals himself to them and their desires change. They see him for who he truly is--Holy, see themselves for who they truly are--sinners, and they see their sins for what they truly are--abominations that deserve God's punishment. Because man chooses what he desires, he chooses to follow God.

 2007/3/2 14:39Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

UniqueWebRev wrote in the Hebrews thread:

Quote:
If God must change our desires for us to choose Jesus, then where is our free-will?



Our Will is free from force and compulsion but is bound to our desires. We desire what we will. It is God who reveals Himself to us so that our desires change. Our desires change because we now see Him in truth. None of this happens against our Will.

Quote:
I did not have a 'desire' to ask Christ into my life. I chose Jesus for my Lord and Savior, just in the same manner I would choose to jump off a cliff, (and frankly, it felt the same to me) because I had long believed that God was. I had long understood what God was offering me, and what I would have to give in return.



You are telling me that you did not desire to ask Christ in your life, yet you chose Him for your Lord and Savior? How can you surrender your life to Him without the desire to do so? Please give me more detail about this because I don't know anyone who believes this.

Quote:
You called it 'works' in another post on this thread.


I have searched the Hebrews 6:4-6 thread and did not see a reference. Please provide me with my quote and I will be able to respond.

Quote:
KJV Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Lucifer and his demons believe in Jesus. They don't choose to serve Him.



I agree. Lucifer and his demons believe in the existence of Jesus, but they never desired to serve Him.

Quote:
Sorry, but if God does more than teach and persuade, cajol, and woo, it is not my free will choice at all, but His desire, His will, and I become nothing but a puppet.



At the moment of salvation, God reveals Himself to a sinner. This sinner doesn't care about God, never met God, and is only living to please his own selfish desires. Then God reveals Himself to the sinner. The sinner sees God in truth-that He is Holy, sees himself in truth-that he is a sinner, and sees his sins in truth-they are an abomination before God and will bring punishment. This is brings repentance and the assurance that through faith salvation will come. The person in this state desires to repent and makes this decision according to their own Will becaue they desire to do so.

There is no puppet in this scenario.

Quote:
Our relationship with Jesus is a love affair. God already owns us. He can do what He likes with us.



AMEN!

Quote:
But He cannot gain our willing trust and love by force, and He wants exactly that, and the works of obedience that prove it. He want's true intimacy with us, not mere acquiescence.



I agree. God never forces anyone to choose Him. However, He does choose to whom He will reveal Himself and no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. Those whom are given to the Son by the Father will be raised up in the last day. God chooses some and passes over others. Is this fair? Take it up with Romans 9.

 2007/3/5 10:03Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Desire vs Will

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Interesting verse you brought up.

"For if I do this willingly..."

Willingly - Greek Hekon
Definition
1. unforced, voluntary, willing
2. of one's own will
3. of one's own accord

"...against my will" is in the Greek Akon which is just the negative of Hekon

How does this violate anything I wrote?



None, if your defining "the will" as your desires or what you want.

Quote:
Quote:
I believe you can do things "against your will" as in "against your desire."



Please explain in more detail.



I was thinking of someone under deep conviction that [intellectually] wants to do right, but can't find the power to do it. Or a Christian that may sin. What does it mean to deny yourself other than deny want you might "want" for what you know is right?



Now that we are debating will as opposed to desire, it clarify's the discussion in regards whether one can make a decision against one's desire, one's preferences, to do what is right or good, or to do what one is forced to do by superior force.

This is exactly the situation that faced me as I asked Jesus into my life. We were already acquainted, in that He knew everything He wanted to know about me, and I had studied Him extensively. There was no reason for me not to ask Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour, except that I DID NOT WANT TO!

Consequently, to settle the matter, I tossed out what I felt, wanted, and desired, and treated it as a business decision. I studied all the pro's and con's. I knew what God's obligations were to me under the New Covenant, and what my duties to God were under that same Covenant.

At long last, and truly feeling as if I were jumping off a cliff (I take oaths and vows very seriously), I accepted the Covenant offered to me.

Fortunately, Jesus didn't mind my method of deliberation over the offer of Himself, for as soon as I did I sign on the dotted line, so to speak, I was overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit, as if a marriage were being consummated. It was only then that my relationship with Jesus began, and blessedly, has progressed extensively since that time.

Many Blessings,


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/5 18:34Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
This is exactly the situation that faced me as I asked Jesus into my life. We were already acquainted, in that He knew everything He wanted to know about me, and I had studied Him extensively. There was no reason for me not to ask Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour, except that I DID NOT WANT TO!

Consequently, to settle the matter, I tossed out what I felt, wanted, and desired, and treated it as a business decision. I studied all the pro's and con's. I knew what God's obligations were to me under the New Covenant, and what my duties to God were under that same Covenant.



When you weighed the pros and the cons you came to a conclusion about Jesus. Did you desire make a choice concerning Jesus?

Our Will is free to choose but is bound to our desires. I propose to you that even though you say you didn't desire Christ, you must have desired something in order to choose to follow Him.

 2007/3/6 10:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
Well, I am glad I showed that I am not a hyper-Calvinist. I wonder how many others think I am a hyper-Calvinist. For all those who are reading...I am not a hyper-Calvinist.

Quote:
That possibility is no longer a personal one to greatly fear, but seems to be the most likely explanation for certain things, such as the fate of King Saul, (it actually says that when the Holy Spirit came upon him he was "turned into another man") or possibly Solomon who turned to idolatry in later life. Also, in these days, the apostacy of certain former Christian leaders, some of whom have turned to error and led many astray after them.


Are you referring to 1 Samuel 11:6? "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."


Hi Jay,

just noticed this question (haven't been around so much lately, for various reasons).

I was thinking especially of 1Samuel 10:verses 6 and 9 [i]6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them [b]and be turned into another man[/b].
...So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that [b]God gave him another heart[/b].[/i]

It does sound as if he experienced what we call New Birth, that he was fundamentally changed at that moment.

The quote you mentioned doesn't necessarily mean Saul was "saved", only that the Spirit came [i]upon[/i] him.

I expect you were going to say that, to refute what I had said! :-P

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/3/7 5:01
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Jay,

just noticed this question (haven't been around so much lately, for various reasons).

I was thinking especially of 1Samuel 10:verses 6 and 9 6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.
...So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart.

It does sound as if he experienced what we call New Birth, that he was fundamentally changed at that moment.

The quote you mentioned doesn't necessarily mean Saul was "saved", only that the Spirit came upon him.

I expect you were going to say that, to refute what I had said!

In Him

Jeannette



I hope this is not an example of a new birth because Saul sinned and God refused to forgive him. 1 Samuel 15:24-26, "Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me that I may worship the LORD." And Samuel said to Saul, "I will not return with you. For you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel."

Saul confessed his sin and God did not receive it. If this is a symbol for new birth then when we commit a sin we are in danger of being rejected by God.

It is true that God gave Saul a new heart, but we must remember the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testament. There are numerous Old Testament passages that refer to the 'Spirit of God coming upon' someone, but in the New Testament we see that the Holy Spirit seals believers:
Ephesians 1:13-14, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

I say that the role of the Holy Spirit is different in the Old and New Testaments not the presence of the Holy Spirit. For we know that the Holy Spirit is present before creation, during creation and is Eternal. However, the role played is different. Look at Jesus' words in John 7:38-40, "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'" Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

A condition for the Spirit to be received by Christians in the New Testament is for Jesus to first be glorified. Since this had not happened yet, the Spirit was still acting in it's Old Testament function.

In John 16:4-15 Jesus tells us the New Testament function of the Holy Spirit and how it is different from the Old Testament function "I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Notice that phrase, 'He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.' Add to this the verses in Ephesians that tell us we are sealed for the day of redemption and you can see that it is because of Jesus being glorified that the Holy Spirit takes on a new role in the New Covenant. I do not believe it is wise to look at Saul as an example of new birth.

 2007/3/7 12:09Profile





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