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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Man's Will

Man’s Will is that by which man actively chooses. It is the innate ability through which, if unhindered, allows man to choose the most desirous option. It is my desire to prove that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation harmoniously with man’s Will, not in violation of man’s Will.

What do I mean by that definition of Will? Here are some practical examples:
Example 1:
Johnny is walking down the street when another man points a gun at him. The robber makes the following statement: “Give me your wallet or I will kill you.” Johnny gives the wallet to the robber who runs away.
One might say, “The robber took the wallet against Johnny’s Will because Johnny did not want to lose his wallet.” It is true that Johnny does not desire to lose his wallet at anytime, however when the robber pointed the gun at Johnny, Johnny was presented two options: 1) Give the wallet and live and 2) Keep the wallet and die. Johnny responded according to his Will and chose the most desirous option (Give the wallet and live). Johnny’s Will was never violated because Johnny freely chose the most desirous option.

Example 2:
Johnny is walking down the street when a net is lowered on him and he cannot move or escape. (I know…poor Johnny) A robber comes out of the shadows, takes Johnny’s wallet and runs away.
One might say, “The robber took the wallet against Johnny’s Will because Johnny never had a chance to decide therefore Johnny’s Will was violated.” It is true that Johnny never had a chance to make a choice and it is for that very reason that Johnny’s Will was not violated. The Will was never brought into the event. Johnny never had an option to choose so therefore he never had his Will violated. The Will manifests itself in the action of choosing, where there is choice there is no action. A sad event occurred in Johnny’s life, but his wallet was not taken against his Will.

I hope that I have shown that a man’s Will is never violated in the course of human events. He is always free to choose what he most desires—as long as the ability to choose is present. With regard to man’s Will, man has the freedom to choose, but is always in bondage to his desires. Thus man’s Will is free, yet bound.

I now want to prove that God does not violate man’s Will when He sovereignty chooses men to become Christians—for this is a common objection to Reformed Theology in that many say it makes men to be nothing more than robots. When God calls a sinner to repentance, He does not violate that sinners Will. What God does is that He reveals truth to the sinner. It can be said that God “removes the spiritual blinders from the sinners eyes.” By God revealing himself to the sinner, the sinner sees God for who He truly is—Holy, sees himself who he truly is—sinful, and sees his sinfulness for what it truly is—deserving of punishment. It is at this moment that the sinner responds to the Call of God. This response is done according to his Will and not is violation of his Will. Even though the sinner is choosing something that he would not have before, the Will is not violated because the man’s desires have changed—desires being that which the Will is bound. The Will still chooses that which is most desirous, in this case it is the most desirous option to respond to God’s Call. Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

I hope, in a spirit of love and respect, that I have proven that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation harmoniously with man’s Will, not in violation of man’s Will.

 2007/3/1 14:36Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re: Man's Will

Is God's will ever violated???

 2007/3/1 14:44Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I would say that it is not, but I want to focus on Man's Will.

 2007/3/1 15:41Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Man’s Will is that by which man actively chooses.



I thought the Bible taught that "the will" was the desires? I can't think of any references that say it is a "decision making faculty."

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

I'm not sure this verse would make sense if you replaced 'my will' with 'my decision making faculty.' I believe you can do things "against your will" as in "against your desire."


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/3/1 16:02Profile









 Re: Man's Will

Preach said

Quote:
I believe you can do things "against your will" as in "against your desire."

Hmmm. I believe you can do things against your flesh, but that's because you want to. You can do things which are against your better judgment, but that's because you want to. Basically, you will do what you want.... If you're confused about what you want, then just look at what you're doing. Every picture tells a story.

It's a bit like praying in the Spirit out loud sometimes and just listening, as if you don't know the person who's praying :-P This can be very illuminating, both to inform where one needs to pray differently, and also, as confirmation that one is indeed in a relationship with the Father..... something to put to rest all those doubts and conflicting thoughts.

 2007/3/1 16:08
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Interesting verse you brought up.

"For if I do this willingly..."

Willingly - Greek Hekon
Definition
1. unforced, voluntary, willing
2. of one's own will
3. of one's own accord

"...against my will" is in the Greek Akon which is just the negative of Hekon

How does this violate anything I wrote?

Quote:
I believe you can do things "against your will" as in "against your desire."



Please explain in more detail.

 2007/3/1 16:15Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I believe you can do things against your flesh, but that's because you want to.



What do you think about the below verse in Romans?

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

EDIT: I think I may agree with you. Maybe!


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Josh Parsley

 2007/3/1 16:18Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Interesting verse you brought up.

"For if I do this willingly..."

Willingly - Greek Hekon
Definition
1. unforced, voluntary, willing
2. of one's own will
3. of one's own accord

"...against my will" is in the Greek Akon which is just the negative of Hekon

How does this violate anything I wrote?



None, if your defining "the will" as your desires or what you want.

Quote:
Quote:
I believe you can do things "against your will" as in "against your desire."



Please explain in more detail.



I was thinking of someone under deep conviction that [intellectually] wants to do right, but can't find the power to do it. Or a Christian that may sin. What does it mean to deny yourself other than deny want you might "want" for what you know is right?


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Josh Parsley

 2007/3/1 16:29Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
None, if your defining "the will" as your desires or what you want.



I thought about that but it seems that the Will is more than just desires. It is that acting upon desires and the decision between competing desires.

Some mornings I desire to shower as soon as I wake up and I desire to not shower as soon as I wake up. Both are desires, but I choose one of those desires because one is more desirable to me at that moment. It is that choice of desires that I am trying to get at here.

Quote:
I was thinking of someone under deep conviction that wants to do right, but can't find the power to do it. Or a Christian that may sin.



I would submit that sometimes a Christian's desire to sin is greater than their desire to obey God. It is that internal struggle Paul referenced in Romans 7. Each is a desire but ultimately one desire is chosen because it is more desirable. None of this is done against the Man's Will

Quote:
What does it mean to deny yourself other than deny want you might "want" for what you know is right?



Your desire to please God is greater than your desire to please self. The Will is still not violated.

Thoughts anyone?

 2007/3/1 16:38Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
I thought about that but it seems that the Will is more than just desires. It is that acting upon desires and the decision between competing desires.



What verses are you thinking of on that latter part? I haven't studied 'the will' intensively but the verses that come to mind make me think it is your desires.

Quote:
Some mornings I desire to shower as soon as I wake up and I desire to not shower as soon as I wake up. Both are desires, but I choose one of those desires because one is more desirable to me at that moment. It is that choice of desires that I am trying to get at here.



So ultimately you are saying we can't ever choose anything that we do not inwardly want to do? By the way, it doesn't offend me if you shower or not. :-P As long as I can't smell you from here.

Quote:

I would submit that sometimes a Christian's desire to sin is greater than their desire to obey God. It is that internal struggle Paul referenced in Romans 7. Each is a desire but ultimately one desire is chosen because it is more desirable. None of this is done against the Man's Will



We differ on the Romans 7 issue. I believe it was before Paul was delivered from the law of sin and chapter 8 was after. We can just ignore that point for now though. Unless you want to discuss it.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/3/1 16:50Profile





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