| Poster | Thread | Remnant119
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Joined: 2007/1/21
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| | I know a little bit about ATF | | My name is Robert and I took some youth to an ATF even last year and to the summer camp also. Their message is right on. Their approach, I don't agree with. I believe that the message is lost in all the hype, unless you are actually looking for a true gospel message. The actual ground of ATF are where Keith Green used to run his Last Day's Ministries. ATF bought it and turned it into Teen Mania. Ron Luce has an awesome quote, but once again I think his approach could be better. "If you give teenagers a watered down gospel you'll have watered down christian teenagers."
Also, I have met Ron Luce and heard him express disgust over the modern message being presented to our youth and how cheap the gospel is being presented to them. At last years ATF Ron Luce shouted, "I'd rather fail a test in school than to fail God!" I don't know if you count that radical but I think you should probably research more before you point fingers. It's good to be skeptical, but it's not good to pass judgement before you've done your research.
ATF and Ron Luce have their hearts in the right place, their message straight from the Bible, but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with. I wish they would kill the light, stop the rock bands, and just have one man with a Bible preaching, then see who would try and Acquire the Fire. |
|  2007/2/26 22:25 | Profile |
| | Re: I know a little bit about ATF | | That was most peoples point. If the approach is not right, the message may be confusing or lost. Some will get it, most will not. It is not the worst option for youth, nor is it the best. God can and will use it, hopefully, they do not abuse it, because we are talking about saving souls, not selling cds (whomever the 'performing artists' are).
:-( |
| | 2007/2/27 5:31 | | Revolution34
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Cardiff, South Wales
| | Re: I know a little bit about ATF | | These threads have been extremly revealing. Our ministry attracts a lot of youth and one of the things that i have come to notice is that unconverted church kids are many times worse than raw sinners. They have no fear of God left in em, they want the church to be some kind of christian youth club that stoops down to relate to them rather than calls them to rise to Gods standards. They know how to play the church game, but they are worldy and unsaved, fornicating, cussing, world loving and hell bound. I have nothing against christian popular music if it is sincere and godly, music is so integral to todays culture we use it as a vehicle to reach souls but only that. But unfortunatley too much christian music is techinically excellent but spiritually lame. What I have seen is that converted youth tuned into the old and tried ways of the simplicity of the faith do have a true fire. We preach to them not the fire of excitement but the fire of obedience. Obedience to do the will of God produces more vibrancy and passion in christians than anything, pursuing passion and vibrancy for its own sake is the big mistake of our times we are creating emotionaly doped out saints who love the Big event the atmsophere of a moment but cant obey God the next day! I get kids leave my church when they find that i wont stoop to do anything to keep them in the church I preach unconditional obedience to Christ the ones who are embracing obedience are discovering the true joy of living for Christ. |
| | 2007/2/27 5:56 | Profile | hmmhmm
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| | Re: | | i say again, why would anyone who is saved by Jesus precius blood want to listen to the worlds music? just becuse they say Jesus in the song dosent make it ok, its from the devil...
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| | 2007/2/27 6:08 | Profile |
| | Re: | | many people take that as a personal attack...because they are still living in the world and the world is still living in them. there is no other answer...
i use to defend rap, rock, and reggae. actually, i remember saying after i started going to church that i would do anything but i did not see anything wrong with a little weed once and a while...
...it reminds me of the story of the little bit of dung in the brownie...
a little bit of the world in your walk will eventually knock you off the narrow path and that tangent will eventually lead you to hell.
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| | 2007/2/27 6:18 | | roadsign
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| | Re: for Robert | | Quote:
but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with. I wish they would kill the light, stop the rock bands, and just have one man with a Bible preaching
Entertainment can be a pitiful substitute for relationship: getting to know the kids as individuals. Its easier to stay disconnected from them and merely provide some pizzazz. Christ, on the other hand would have related with them, and talked to them one to one. He would have met them where they were at. He came to heal brokenness, set them free from fears, etc all those things our youth struggle with.
If our youth don't meet Christ through us, then how can we expect them to put their trust in him?
In our culture we have become accustomed to mass-producing people like factories. Ex: Schools use the cookie cutter method. We just take that cultural value into religion.
Quote:
then see who would try and Acquire the Fire.
Bingo! I think you struck right through our favorite idol in Christianity. We want to see RESULTS and will do anything to try to make it happen.
A preacher once said, If the Spirit doesnt move the people, I move the Spirit. So, really we are playing God.
Thankfully the Spirit can penetrate through all the layers and touch souls one here, and one there. But the vast majority will be no different than the countless in past generations: addicted to religion. And you wont ever change that.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Robert.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2007/2/27 7:08 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
i say again, why would anyone who is saved by Jesus precius blood want to listen to the worlds music? just becuse they say Jesus in the song dosent make it ok, its from the devil...
[b]Hmmm[/b] ... while I am critical of the state of Christian music today, there are a number of bands and musicians who are born again and are making a difference. 30 years ago Keith Greens music style (which was rock) was considered incredibly radical to some in the church. But I think we all agree here that he had a powerful ministry... and still does 24 years after his death.
Petra was recording music for 30 years until they retired last year. Their music is nothing more than straight up scripture, and their music has been an incredible encouragement to me since I was saved. They have seen thousands saved. I'll not sit in judgement of their ministry.
Be careful saying something is of the devil when it might just be of God. You'll find yourself fighting against God.
Now... I am very critical of Christian music because it is driven by money. If it wasnt then it wouldnt be owned by large secular companies like Fox, Sony, etc. They dont care about ministry one bit... they care about money. It hasnt always been that way... but it changed in the early 90's, and Christian music has been on the decline ever since. Now we're to the point where the majority of artists are more about their image than they are about reaching souls for Christ.
Artists like Steve Camp saw it coming and got out of the Christian music business years ago.
When you buy a CD the artist gets something like 4% of the money. The rest goes to the big secular companies. And these companies that own Christian music also put out all the trash you see on TV, and on the movie screen, and put out artists like Rob Zombie, AC/DC, Brittany Spears, etc.
[b]Thats[/b] whats wrong with Christian music, and that's why it has become tripe. It is unequally yoked together with darkness... therefore it is seriously compromised.
As for ATF, I agree with one of the earlier posters on this thread... I dont think any of us are saying that no good comes from it. I stated yesterday that I am sure a few lives have been changed. But I equally as sure that the vast majority have not been eternally impacted just because of what the original poster has stated... the message is overwhelmed by the hype!
The ends do [b]not[/b] justify the means, and the message is getting lost, then the means are wrong.
Krispy |
| | 2007/2/27 8:06 | | hmmhmm
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| | Re: | | let me refrase, if a christian bannd , if what you se on mtv or other "wordly" godless tv channels and "cultures" of today...in many bands the only difference is they say jesus or qoute scripture. i like Keith Green, but the hardcore heavy metalbands.. heavy music black hair and look like demons... is that a deciple of Jesus? a follower of the light of the world? my unconverted mother would run if she jkust saw some of the people claiming to be christians, as keith daniel said when he heard a christian rock song....thats as close to hell ive been on this earth
i just listend to this sermon by erlo stegen... someone should write him a letter...he said if you listen to rock music you are going to hell, becuse your body should be a sacrifice to the lord, your ears to, if you listen to rock you playing around whit christianity... maybe i took it out of context?
anyone want to listen
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=14490&commentView=itemComments
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| | 2007/2/27 8:16 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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| | Re: I know a little bit about ATF | | Quote:
Remnant119 wrote:
ATF and Ron Luce have their hearts in the right place, their message straight from the Bible, but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with.
I thought I'd insert a great quote here:
Quote:
"Brass is mistaken for gold more easily than clay is." - CS Lewis
May I recommend the following sermon for your consideration, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3324]Holiness Or Blessing[/url] by Art Katz? Some good thoughts here that would be relevant to the matter discussed here.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2007/2/27 8:16 | Profile | Compton
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| | Re: | | Quote:
If our youth don't meet Christ through us, then how can we expect them to put their trust in him?
Aint this the truth?
As a Christian parent, I can not in good conscience entrust my children to your typical 'youth ministry'. My over arching objective is for my children to entrust their lives to Jesus. This is a 24/7 calling that rebukes hypocrasy, and breaks convenient illusions of self-righteousness in the honest parent. Now realizing how careful we as parents must walk in love and holiness with much transparency before the careful gaze of our children and in more fear of God...how in the world could we then not look with suspicion upon youth leaders who lift up Christian rock bands, punk hair styles and pizza parties?
These youth groups may serve some function as 'intermediate' steps for the many children lost to the world...but if we were really cross-culture missionaries we would bring the cross over into their cultures. I say that more then to be clever...you cannot imitate a rebellous culture and at the same time ask children to repent of it. As Ed Orr once said..."It is one thing for a ship to be water...but quite another for water to be in the ship" Youth pastors who wear earrings, hire rock bands, and spout hip youthful prhases are perhaps making a connection with the kids...but I fear they are sinking the very ship that was sent to rescue them.
This is not because these things are so bad or evil in themselves. I am not talking about petty legalism...and certainly I'm not talking about 'banning' all this stuff. I'm talking about the incessant centrality this stuff seems to occupy in youth ministries. If you believe that kids need Christian rock and pizza parties to see Jesus then that is also legalistic.
The issue I have here is that to many of these children, their worldy music, clothes, and heroes are powerful symbols of a reality that has their minds and hearts...this reality tells them that they are hopeless, without love, and wthout God. The world, including their own education system, tells them their souls are worthless, or non-existent and as a result they feel entitled to take whatever pleasure or pay-back they can get regardless of the damage to themselves.
For this reason youth pastors who stylize the Word of God after these worldy devices to win the affections of teenagers are not, (in my opinion) being faithful shepherds to the souls entrusted to them, but instead are taking the low road in order to achieve temporary results. They are adding to the confusion and not walking in the light as Christ is in the light.
Hey, this does not just apply to the use of hip hop and rock in the church...but also to the wall street corporatization of our churches as well. Some big time pastors need to spend less time with their white collar business friends and more time with their blue collar flock who don't have anything to offer them in return.
Well, my original point was that Christian parenting, if properly walked out, would censure most youth groups today. I think Krispy had mentioned this in another thread, and I agree with him...the reason youth groups are such a big deal these days is because parenting has become a small deal.
All of this self-righteous 'you don't understand my culture' hub-bub is leading me to the conclusion that churches should do away with...or at least minimize the role of youth groups and simply serve the same Word of God to the teens as they do the adults. This way the young men can be around more mature Godly men, (and they had better be!) and the young ladies can be around Godly women. (And they had better be!)
Now I have several friends who are youth pastors and I think they know exactly where I'm coming from. Keeping the youth lovingly alongside the adults in church would be real 'cross-culturalism'...not this closed door youth ghetto we have down the hall today in most churches.
Blessings,
MC
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Mike Compton
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| | 2007/2/27 8:57 | Profile |
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