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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Acquire the fire. Acquire WHAT fire?

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.



Brother if you are in the Family of God culture should not dtermine our efforts.

How can you speak to an elder in such a manner? Your response is from emotion and arrogance, and is very telling that God has put His finger upon something in your heart.

Do you know what gives Bro. Paul the right to say what he has? the fact that he has probably wept over the pictures, bands etc before he even spoke a word. I would not be surpirsed that he has wept and cried out to God for you as well, thus he has not answered your response yet.

I do not care what the current "chrsitian culture" offers as the majority of it tepid to say the least, and lacking in any kind of doctrinal truth, or Scriptural conversion, but ratheer is set up to appeal to the flesh and then suddenly switch to the Spirit.

I am reminded of what Paul Washer said, "some of the things you love God hates!"

One last thing, I used to listen to Skillet, and even knew the man that makes John's guitars. Now please do not take this as some sort of spiritual ego trip, but then I grew up, and began to see things differently. They are talented musicians for sure, but that does not mean anything, God does not need entertainers.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 12:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
They are not self seeking, self centered, or greedy like the contemporary worship circle is.



Interesting that while you slam someone for being critical of your favorite band... you throw a blanket of critisism over an entire genre of music and musicians. If we can dispense with the hypocracy around here, perhaps we might get something accomplished for the kingdom.

Now... I would actually like to address the topic. I dont know much about ATF. I am familiar with the bands and speakers who "perform" (I have a hard time calling it ministry... especially the music part) at these types of rallies. I have also attended many events like ATF.

I will never say that God does not move upon some that are in attendance. I am sure He does. But my experience has been that most do not come away with any lasting changes. It's the same old argument that we need to entertain the masses in order to reach them. Sure, there is some preaching, and God's Word does not come back void. But I am convinced more and more everyday that what our teens need is not entertainment and huge productions with lights and smoke. They need the Word of God.

For instance... we homeschool. Many of the homeschool families we know are some of the most dedicated and serious Christians you will ever meet. I see 12 year old who [b]study[/b] the Bible. Yesterday I flipped thru my 10 yr old's Bible and was pleased that he has marked and noted in his Bible quite a bit. A trait he's picked up from me. I've seen many of these kids grow up to go on to Bible school to become pastors and missionaries. They didnt spend their time and money going to concerts, or huge events (tho some did, and thats [b]ok[/b]!). They didnt need those things to validate their relationship with God, or to be lit "on fire"... they were already on fire because they were filled with the Word of God.

Ben will, I'm sure, take exception to this... but I've been around enough to know that the vast majority of church youth groups spend more time and energy on entertainment than they do serious Bible study and prayer. I know there are exceptions, but not many. Thats a fact. Ben can throw a hissy and tell me I'm wrong... but I'm not wrong.

When the [b]parents[/b] in the churches make Jesus Christ their priority in life instead of their career's, the TV, sports, etc... and begin to obey scripture and teach their children to do likewise... then things like ATF will not exist. But most "Christian" parents are too concerned with making payments on houses and cars that they cant afford, and too concerned about who's gonna win Survivor or American Idol. As long as that is true... the youth will suffer.

ATF is not evil. Dont misunderstand me. But the concept is flawed. It is a substitute for learning, studying, memorizing, obey and living out the Word of God. Show me a teenager who spends 1 hour a day (or more) in serious study of the Word and in prayer... and I'll show you a teenager who is too busy for Jesus to even attend ATF.

Quote:
Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.



This is a very telling statement. What culture? Biblical culture? Scriptural culture? Unfortunately today people want to be "just like" the world, thinking they will show people that "hey, Christians can be cool too!". Why? Paul didnt do that. Jesus said because the world [b]hated[/b] Him, we can expect it to hate us too. If the world thinks you're cool... you better examine your walk with God! Something is wrong.

I have gotten to the point where I dont care what the world thinks of me. I have the Truth, and the truth has set me free.

Ben, you can argue with me on this all you want. But I'm right about this. And if you belong to a "culture" that sets itself at odds with precious saints who have been walking with God for quite awhile (such as PaulWest), then you're in the wrong "culture", my friend. You should be chasing after people like him, trying to soak up as much wisdom as you can... not being in rebellion toward them.

You're 20. When I was 20 I was a fool. I wasnt saved, so I was a real fool. At least you're saved, my friend. You have a leg up on me. When you get to be 39 like I am... and you've seen some things... I bet you'll be singing a different tune, brother. And when you hit 80... wow, imagine where you will be in your walk with the Lord! And what will remain? Only those things that matter to God.

Krispy

 2007/2/26 12:17
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Those guys look pretty cool -I'd hang out with them!

Let me get one thing straight, if they love Jesus it doesn't matter if they have a mohawk or piercings.

I bet Jesus would prefer to go to a punk rock show than some of our churches.

It's sad to hear about the kids in one of the posts earlier, but you know what, we can judge a whole event or organization by a few kids but that would be wrong.

We all love Leonard Ravenhill and Keith Green... well do you know where the headquarters of ATF is located? On Keith Green's ranch (the old LDM campus) in Texas! A lot of the senior members of the ministry were raised up through Last Days and other ministries we all love!

They use a different 'means' to reach out to youth, but their theology is sound! There's always going to be problems in any ministry, I bet even David Wilkerson has a few rotten eggs, but don't judge this book by it's cover.

They're getting kids into missions! That's awesome, that was Keith Green's final desire -it's good to see that someone is still listening 25 years later.

Wow, me and Ben agreeing on something... it must be the end times!


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Ian Smith

 2007/2/26 12:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Ben,

I have a 20 year old that was in my youth group for many years and tells me he is not going to ATF [i]because[/i] Skillet is going to be there. His concern is after reading about some of their plans to return to bars (this is second hand from him) to play that that is a problem for him.

Personally I have not come to a full opinion as of yet. My great concern is not the lyrics as important that that is. My concern is what 'spirit' the music is of.

Quote:
Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.



As a youth pastor of several years and father of 5 teen aged children this stament is very confusing to me. Just exactly what is 'our culture'? As Christians we are to emulate the person of Jesus Christ to the best of our ability. Is there some sort of youth sub culture going on that only they can 'understand'. I grew up in the sex/drugs/and rock and roll of the 1980's. I have seen the punk bands the tatoos, piercings, mohawks and concert shirts. I grew up in an age when guys wore shirts with 666 plastered on the front and devil worship as part and portion of the concerts. Bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. So it is not that I and many here may not be familiar with the 'culture'. But when I went to church I absolutely did not expect Christianity to model itself after Maiden and Priest. If it did, as a teen or youth, I had been utterly shocked and disappointed.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/26 12:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Wow, me and Ben agreeing on something... it must be the end times!



LOL...

As most know here, I dont have an issue with musical styles. What I have an issue with is kids who know all of Skillets lyrics, yet cant find the book of Hosea in the Bible.

I knew a kid once who knew the lyrics to almost any song by Petra (a band I have the utmost respect for), yet claimed he couldnt memorize scripture. C'mon dude...

Krispy

 2007/2/26 12:26
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Hi Ben! I had to edit this comment a bit; I felt the original was perhaps too angry. I love you, dear brother, and I pray this post explains where I'm coming from in a more gentle, charitable manner.

You asked me this question:

Quote:
Have you ever been to a Skillet concert?



No, and you couldn't pay me to go. I've been in Christian bookstores when their music is being played and I have to leave. Shouldn't that be enough? Their music is ugly and worldly and offensive to my ears. It does not provoke me to a deeper surrender and humilty in God; it, in fact, reminds me of my flesh-driven unregenerate life! I am upset because this "worship music" has usurped our heritage's glorious hymns. Our kids have never been exposed to the ineffable purity of God's presence through the singing of hymns - they put on their headphones and just blare this music as loud as it can go. I'v3e seen it time and time again. They bring their iPods to youth group, wearing daemonic-looking shirts and just zone out or try to mosh out. If you try to reach these kids with Wesley and Watts, they've already built up an automatic apathy for anything "old sounding", because the old hymns do not instantly boost their flesh. There's nothing there for them to hang on to. It's almost as if th music spiritually lobotomizes them. You can't have a jumping, hollering party singing, "Arise, My Soul Arise" or "Is Thy Heart Right With God?", but you can jump and shout and whistle to Skillet and Newsboys. Butr what if you take the music away? Will they still jump and shout and whistle if someone were up on stage just [i]quoting[/i] Skillet lyrics? Why do we need the spikey hair and black mascara and evil-looking smirks and explosions and smoke machines and flourescent lights to "fire" the kids up? Can't the lyrics of the worship alone achieve this?

Quote:
Just because you don't understand our culture, does not give you the right to say it is wrong.



Dear brother, I understand your [i]culture[/i] just fine - and I tell you it has no place in God's church. I understand that modern culture, and the [i]spirit[/i] it espouses is ungodly superficial, and at utter enmity with God's holiness. Your generation will reap what it sows, Ben. Your abhorrence of all that is pure and lovely and humble diffuses through modern youth groups like a noxious stench. I see first-hand the covetous cliques in youth fellowships, the strutting, the vast identity crisis of not knowing who they are in Christ. The totally dependancy on music and beats to get into God's supposed presence. And I see the spirit of this culture usurping the Holy Spirit's rightful role of mentorship: instead of God, the [i]culture[/i] influences the way kids dress, their mannerisms, etc. And I see this spirit typified in bands like Skillet.


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/26 12:33Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

You are right that God put a finger on my heart, I was a little angry at what I saw written.

But I do want to say that simply because rock may have been someones culture when they were unsaved, does not make it now sinful for everyone else.

The Christian rock scene is not like the worldly rock scene. Albeit that there are some bands who are far too questionable for my walk with the Lord. So what do I do? I don't listen to those bands, but to the ones who do glorify God, like Skillet, I investigate and seek God about them. Skillet has been one of the few burning and shining lamps in the Christian rock scene. Keeping their lyrics holy before God. They pray before they play. They witness many times, maybe not every show, but almost.

What you don't seem to realize is that there are some people out their who will not listen to any of us, but they will listen to Skillet. And God uses that.

Now do I say that we are supposed to try to look, smell, taste, think, dress like the world? No, I don't, but even Paul says " I have become all things to all men, that I might win a few." Why did he do that? I think it's obvious.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 13:01Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Interesting that while you slam someone for being critical of your favorite band... you throw a blanket of critisism over an entire genre of music and musicians. If we can dispense with the hypocracy around here, perhaps we might get something accomplished for the kingdom.



You're right. (see, I told you that I admit it when I'm wrong)

Quote:
Ben will, I'm sure, take exception to this... but I've been around enough to know that the vast majority of church youth groups spend more time and energy on entertainment than they do serious Bible study and prayer. I know there are exceptions, but not many. Thats a fact. Ben can throw a hissy and tell me I'm wrong... but I'm not wrong.



Actually, I agree, I think for the most part that the youth groups in America are pathetic babysitting devices. They are so caught up in the world it's ridiculous, they try to fit God in somewhere, but if the numbers drop, then they become even more user friendly. If they would all shut up and go pray for the same time that they have their Youth group, we would probably see revival come from it.

Quote:
ATF is not evil. Dont misunderstand me. But the concept is flawed. It is a substitute for learning, studying, memorizing, obey and living out the Word of God. Show me a teenager who spends 1 hour a day (or more) in serious study of the Word and in prayer... and I'll show you a teenager who is too busy for Jesus to even attend ATF.



Well, this quotes well, but it is not true. I have a couple of close friends, and we all are committed to the Lord, spending some days as much as five or eight hours in prayer and serious study, now generally its about one and a half to two hours, but there are those awesome days! And we are not too busy to go see a band play, or attend a concert now and then, now do we go every weekend and spend our money there? No, we don't, (we don't have enough money...lol)

Quote:
Ben, you can argue with me on this all you want. But I'm right about this. And if you belong to a "culture" that sets itself at odds with precious saints who have been walking with God for quite awhile (such as PaulWest), then you're in the wrong "culture", my friend. You should be chasing after people like him, trying to soak up as much wisdom as you can... not being in rebellion toward them.



You see Krispy, I agree with you, if any band is taking the place of prayer and study, cast it away from you, I don't care how good they are.

But I disagree with your last statement about the being at odds with the older culture.

If we are in line with scripture, and they are slamming us, it is them who need correction and not us. Now I am not making a blanket statement that the whole Christian rock scene is good. There are a number of bands that I don't support at all, why? They are not following God, they look like the world, act like the world, and dress like the world, and they never use that to reach out to the world. And so I don't support them.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 13:19Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Studying missions there's one theme we talk about a lot -how do we allow a people group to become Christian but still be that people group.

Often we go out and try to win people to Christ by making them patriotic Americans -even if they're indiginous Kenyans or Vietnamese. We need to be able to see what is good about their culture and allow that to continue while bringing them to the saving faith of Jesus.

Robert de Nobili and Mateo Ricci were successful in China because they wore chinese clothing, spoke fluent chinese, could wax eloquent in Chinese with the best poets and philosophers of the time in China... and by bringing them Jesus through 'means' that the Chinese could understand. Their ministry flourished!

We have tribes of youth who would accept Jesus if we didn't force them to listen to our music and join our 'american church' culture. Let's just be honest here, everything we think of as part of Christianity in the USA isn't always part of Christianity to people in other regions of the world.

They need Jesus, they don't need our churches... I'm just glad someone is going to them as a cross-cultural missionary to reach them with the Gospel, because even though it's only a small generational gap, there are major cultural issues that you might not even be aware of.


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Ian Smith

 2007/2/26 13:23Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

another thing to think about is, if you cant let go of your music/culturestyle...how can you let go of everything else we need to let go to follow Christ? sometimes we fight so hard to keep something small of the world... we even try and blend it and mix it whit Jesus..but it wont last the final fire...


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/26 13:28Profile





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