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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Psychology - the study of the mind

I appreciate many of the points here. Certainly there are many angles to explore.

When I think of the horrendous ways that mentally ill victims used to be treated - I am deeply grateful for the research done in the field of psychology. Ignorance is certainly not a better option. Truth is truth, and it so happens that sometimes non-Christians discover it before the Christians do.

Quote:
God can use the devil to save someone, he can use anything. This does not mean we should look for answers outside of Him.



Brother, I’m sure that you wouldn’t hesitate to go to a doctor if you had appendicitis. In fact refusing to do so could cost you your life. And, of course, you’d accept the fact that some of the health care workers overseeing you could be atheists.

Yet, I wonder why you would discourage one who is suffering from a psychiatric disorder or relational abuse this same privilege – that is, seeing healthcare providers in that area of expertise.

I suspect that those Christians who are strongly opposed to any kind of psychology/psychiatry have not had the opportunity to witness the suffering of the mind of those admitted to a psych ward - watched them agonize night and day, moaning and groaning in a corner, or washing their hands obsessively till they bleed, or starving themselves to death, or trying to kill themselves etc, etc. Objectors maybe never have worked in a mental health institution, - or even dealt closely with afflicted ones in church or family, or in themselves.

While I was in nurses training I worked in psychiatry, and I was absolutely overwhelmed by the degree of mental suffering that exists in our society. I had lived a sheltered life. After that rotation I wanted nothing more than to spend my life working with those who have sicknesses of the mind,and show them Christ's love. I wanted to be a psychiatric nurse. Of course, it didn’t happen officially, but in many ways God has brought various people into my life who suffer emotional distress. And I am thankful for the psychology and psychiatry that I have studied – as little as it is. In fact, when I was studying these courses I was amazed at how much better this discipline (in it’s ideal) seemed to be than the church at understanding the sin nature(maladaptive thinking, or whatever). The deeper awareness of their sin condition can help Christian move towards healing and repentance. (The church, in my experience, tends to view sin in terms of outer behavior, and this is very limiting) I am reluctant to change my view on that now, even though I am aware that psychology has been grossly abused, even by Christian practitioners and writers.

A caution: Before we denounce an entire field of science and medicine, we first need to consider reality: We live in a very sick world. Many people today come out of families that simply could not provide the environment needed to develop emotionally healthy adults. For various reasons we are seeing a lot of mental illness. That will be growing.

True, those troubles are a consequence of a society that rejects God, just as are the other ailments, ex cancer, etc… But, to the extent that we aren’t helping or can’t help, we should be extremely careful about denouncing those who are trying. After all, we could find ourselves some day at the receiving end.

Quote:
This is a classic example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


Thank you for the caution.

Here’s another consideration: While we may not like this notion of “psychology”, we may actually be practicing it ourselves more than we realize. In fact, we Christians can all to easily designate ourselves as experts of other people’s “mind problems“ That is just what the Pharisees were doing, wasn’t it? They merely did a lot of “non-professional” judging, because of their ignorance – regarding themselves, regarding human nature, and regarding the value of mercy.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/2/25 16:31Profile









 Re: Christianity and Psychology

John173 said

Quote:
In the church I have seen two camps. One attempts to use psychology and apply it to believers. These churches may even have a counceling department or an offshoot para-church ministry. The other tends to reject psychology and as a result ignore the fact that many people do have internal damage and make no effort toward ministering to their pain. [b]This is a classic example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.[/b]

Exactly!

Quote:
I struggle with the terminology in this discussion. Psychology as a word when mentioned in the church often elicits a knee jerk reaction because the hearer makes an association with secular psychiatry and has rejected such. What I want to communicate is simply the internal working of the mind. Unfortunately the english language doesn't have a word that makes this distinction clear.

Let me help you with the distinction.....

The difference between Christ and psychology is that: psychology is a system of observations or, the systematising of observations about how the human mind works, which, if respected, and the 'client' is respected, can be helpful to both the 'psychologist' and the 'client' in the bringing about of change; how respectful of the process the psychologist is, will have a huge bearing on any possible benefit to the client. How serious about change the client is, will have a huge bearing on any possible benefit which he or she can reap from their new understanding of how to define their need, and how to appropriate any benefit; whereas Christ is the Answer to all searching. Psychology does not deal with Sin or sins. Christ deals with both. He is exquisitely able to heal the most exquisite pains, if they can be brought into His presence. Psychology can also bring about healing, by the simple matter of a person being bothered with, and their inner pain being taken seriously.

This is a work which Christians ought to be doing for each other all the time. But in general, we lack the patience of Christ, and most Christians who are not hurting, think the hurting ones should either buck up their ideas and stop needing help, or, should appropriate their healing from God without causing so much work for others in the process. Sigh.

Lastly, (one of the strings I regularly pluck in this kind of discussion), is that there needs to be a simple understanding amongst members of the Body of Christ, that a person who has been wounded, needs to be healed. They do not need to [i]repent[/i] of hurting. It was not their fault. They may, on the other hand, need to repent of holding on to the guilt of the offender, of holding on to the pain rather than rolling it on to Jesus, but not of being in pain per se. The 'sin' in this case, is the sin of the person who [i]caused[/i] the pain.

Perhaps there is a kind of pride amongst Christians which says, when offended by someone also a Christian, that 'I'm ok'.... 'I don't need to go to my brother and tell him I was offended' .... 'it's more spiritual to say nothing'.... I wonder if it really is 'more spiritual', especially since Jesus gave specific instructions for just this circumstance.....?

 2007/2/25 16:32









 Re: Christianity and Psychology

LittleGift,

I recognise the scenario you're discussing here, and agree with your concerns to help this woman, but, she has to make her own decisions, in the light of healthier alternatives.

Quote:
He has also joined the Freemasons!

This is very telling, since he cannot be submitted to Christ and a Freemason.

I searched the scripture for a long time [i]after[/i] I'd left my husband, to find that a Christian woman is not bound to stay with a non-Christian man. I recognise that there can be a very happy marriage where there is love, but this man is not nurturing and cherishing her like a part of his own body any more (Eph 5).

 2007/2/25 16:41
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Jeannette

Jeannette


I agree very much. I was not trying to say we shouldn’t accept help from outside sources, I was just wanting to emphasize that we should not seek sources outside of him.

I have also been ministered to by some very unlikely people, places, and things. It is important to realize God’s ways are not our ways.

Quote:
Why shouldn't He sometimes send non-Christian counsellors, or even a mentally ill woman, full of demons



I know he can and has used non-Christian counselors, but should we be looking to them for answers in the first place?

My concern is not with what he sends or in his abilities, but with where we seek.

God bless

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/2/25 16:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Jeannette

I agree very much. I was not trying to say we shouldn’t accept help from outside sources, I was just wanting to emphasize that we should not seek sources outside of him.

I have also been ministered to by some very unlikely people, places, and things. It is important to realize God’s ways are not our ways.

Quote:
Why shouldn't He sometimes send non-Christian counsellors, or even a mentally ill woman, full of demons



I know he can and has used non-Christian counselors, but should we be looking to them for answers in the first place?

My concern is not with what he sends or in his abilities, but with where we seek.

God bless

TJ


Thanks for making your views on this plain Brother. I think we agree :-D

 2007/2/25 17:10









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
LittleGift,

I recognise the scenario you're discussing here, and agree with your concerns to help this woman, but, she has to make her own decisions, in the light of healthier alternatives.

That's just the problem apparently. She has become so oppressed that she is unable to break free.

Basically we can only pray for her as she lives many miles away. I only met her about twice, some years ago, so don't really know her. The Lord has shown certain things about her situation, but we can only trust Him to somehow get her out.

It's very much a case of "Let my people go!" ..."Pharaoh" has such a hold on her that it will truly take a miracle, but there is also practical help available(such as in a woman's refuge) if she could only come to the point of being [i]able[/i] to try to get away (She isn't allowed any money even for a bus fare, and has to account for every penny of the housekeeping).
Quote:
He has also joined the Freemasons!

Quote:
This is very telling, since he cannot be submitted to Christ and a Freemason.

I searched the scripture for a long time [i]after[/i] I'd left my husband, to find that a Christian woman is not bound to stay with a non-Christian man. I recognise that there can be a very happy marriage where there is love, but this man is not nurturing and cherishing her like a part of his own body any more (Eph 5).


He certainly isn't! I fear for this man's soul, I really do.

Jeannette

 2007/2/25 17:23
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Does the Bible contain the truth?

Does the Bible have all the answers?


Is there an area in which the Bible is insufficient?

how did the world get along for 1,900 years without it?

Is it a new truth?



I'm not sure what your point is here TJ. The point I am trying to make is precisely that the only means of ministering healing to the broken and shattered lives IS the truth. His word and more importantly He Himself. The problem is that few in the church are capable of even acknowledging the need for "psychological" healing. By this I mean that when someone dares to expose their pain to most Christians they often get some pat answer. This is not doing them any good and many times just adds another layer of pain. How many people have turned away from the church because they were rejected for lacking maturity when the reason behind it was a broken heart? Where is our heart? Are we not commanded to love each other?

May God have mercy on us all,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/25 20:12Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: roadsign

Diane

I will try to explain.

First of all psychology and psychiatry are 100% completely different.


Quote:
Brother, I’m sure that you wouldn’t hesitate to go to a doctor if you had appendicitis. In fact refusing to do so could cost you your life.



Quote:
Yet, I wonder why you would discourage one who is suffering from a psychiatric disorder or relational abuse this same privilege



I support psychiatry with all my heart. This thread was about psychology.

Quote:
I suspect that those Christians who are strongly opposed to any kind of psychology/psychiatry have not had the opportunity to witness the suffering of the mind of those admitted to a psych ward



(1) Once again psychology and psychiatry are 100% completely different. You can not lump them together.

(2) I was placed in a psych ward for two weeks during high school.

Quote:
Objectors maybe never have worked in a mental health institution, - or even dealt closely with afflicted ones in church or family, or in themselves.



(1) I work in the health field

(2) I have taken many psych patient transfers. Just me and the patient in the back of an ambulance…many lasting over two hours.

Quote:
those who have sicknesses of the mind



This has never been proven by anyone…ever. The mind is not something that can have sickness. That’s like saying someone has a sick soul. We can have a sick brain, and brain illness and disease. This is where psychiatry comes in.

Quote:
And I am thankful for the psychology and psychiatry that I have studied – as little as it is.



Me too. Before I was saved I went to five different psychologist and two psychiatrists.
I took high school psychology and two psychology courses in college. My sister is five credits away from having a degree in psychology.

Quote:
A caution: Before we denounce an entire field of science and medicine, we first need to consider reality:



The reality is that psychology has never been and never will be a science. This has been proven. Psychiatry is a science, and has been proven to be such.

Quote:
Many people today come out of families that simply could not provide the environment needed to develop emotionally healthy adults



This is nothing new. It didn’t just start happening. There is nothing new under the sun. How did Christians get along for 1,900 years without psychology?

Quote:
True, those troubles are a consequence of a society that rejects God, just as are the other ailments, ex cancer, etc…



I agree.

Quote:
we should be extremely careful about denouncing those who are trying



I have no problem if they are using the Bible.

Is God sufficient?

Does the Bible have all the answers or is it insufficient?


Quote:
we could find ourselves some day at the receiving end.



I did, and that's why I've posted what I have.

I only have issues with psycho-therapy. That is what over 90% of today’s psychologists use and practice. Psycho-therapy is what is commonly thought of when someone mentions psychology.

I hope I have been clear. I have no issues or problems with people that like and use psychology. I just want to expose it for what it is.

TJ



_________________
TJ

 2007/2/25 20:18Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
It's very much a case of "Let my people go!" ..."Pharaoh" has such a hold on her that it will truly take a miracle, but there is also practical help available(such as in a woman's refuge) if she could only come to the point of being able to try to get away (She isn't allowed any money even for a bus fare, and has to account for every penny of the housekeeping).


Jeanette, I am familiar with a very similar situation. Only this couple belonged to the Brethren church and he was one of the leaders there. She was trapped, with not a penny to her name. God miraculously stirred different Christians to provide an escape for her. One person GAVE her a car. Someone else gave her a home and even a job all in another town. My friend (that’s how I heard about it) felt exercised to give her a cash donation one day. It was just what the woman needed for gas and some immediate needs.

May your friend experiences God's merciful intervention.

Quote:
This is a work which Christians ought to be doing for each other all the time. But in general, we lack the patience of Christ, and most Christians who are not hurting, think the hurting ones should either buck up their ideas and stop needing help, or, should appropriate their healing from God without causing so much work for others in the process. Sigh.



I sigh too, Dorcas! If our churches functioned as hospitals for sick sinners and could facilitate healing, repentance, and victory, people would not need to turn as much to the secular professionals.

The Biblical teachings on love, one-anothering, family relationships etc are conducive to good emotional health. However, where unhealthy patterns become set in, it’s hard to reverse them. Hypocrisy tends to mask them.

As Doug points out:
Quote:
The problem is that few in the church are capable of even acknowledging the need for "psychological" healing. By this I mean that when someone dares to expose their pain to most Christians they often get some pat answer. This is not doing them any good and many times just adds another layer of pain. How many people have turned away from the church because they were rejected for lacking maturity when the reason behind it was a broken heart? Where is our heart? Are we not commanded to love each other?



A psychologist once told me: "The churches keep them in business (esp RC and JW in her experience)." Doesn’t this reality make you realize that we, the church, really have little right to criticize the secular fields when we have contributed to the need for them?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/2/25 20:26Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: john173

Quote:
I'm not sure what your point is here TJ.



I was just pointing out that we, Christians, do have the means to get the answers and help for these people you speak of. We need not go to outside sources like psychology.

Are we doing it…NO! We are not helping like we should, and I don’t have all the answers, but I know where they are.

I just wanted to point out the fact that we Christians have the right manual, not psychology. It is a sad day and times, but I see that some are abandoning the Bible and looking else where for cures that only come from the Lord.


TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/2/25 20:28Profile





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