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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug

Quote:
A major goal of the devil is to create a deep sense of insecurity in the inner man of every man, woman and child on this planet. The subliminal advertising is one of his major methods. he is succeeding. The level of societal neuroticism today is staggering! Can we not recognize that our culture is going over the edge as compared to let's say the 50's?



i agree and can plainly see where he has done such through big business and helping big business pander to our flesh. i've since been loosed from all that, praise God. i know full well who i am in God's sight and so i have no need to prove myself by the world's standards nor have i any insecurity which can be exploited by material things or the lure thereof. there are a great many though who are still in bondage who need to be loosed...forcefully so. when all is said and done, God still tends to our physical needs and as long as we are here, there will always be stewards charged with that task.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/26 0:08Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Ironman,

Thanks for your dialogue bro.

I wanted to both affirm and disagree at the same time on this point. (...some people might say I'm trying to ride 'two horses' at the same time, :-) )

Quote:
i still feel though that money is neutral and can't corrupt anyone unless it is inherent in that person to be so corrupted by money. Money only amplifies what one already is.



Of course I agree with this in theory. Then again theorectically it isn't sex or political power that corrupts the soul either. Like they say, "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

And I certainly don't disagree that we all need money to live! The poorer you are the more you need it like oxygen!

Yet, there is something missing in this detached perspective. Money does indeed amplify the heart...but I am also concluding that too much of it weakens the heart.

These days we have plenty of self-sufficient saints, always looking inward for their guidance to an inner voice. Self-sufficiency is regarded as strength to the world, but I find in Christ it is weakness. Money only enables this myopy further.

Now we are talking not so much about paper engravings of the Presidents, or long digital positive numbers smiling back at you when you visit your online bank...we are talking about a system that provides all of your needs and even a few fantasies in a way that replaces God.

I was out with my family this weekend at a shopping mall. How wildly sensual, violent, and yet luxurious and civilized our 'babylon' is! The voice of God is very squelched in our world...not just because of money but because of the whole pagan penumbra that not only blots out the Son, (even in most churches) but also lovingly provides for your every need---as long as you serve it faithfully. It will provide insurance for your children, cures for your deseases, a roof over your head, let you sleep safe and sound at night next to a beautiful spouse, fill your belly with whatever suits you, and your mind with amusement, and it will even give you a deep sense of purpose and identity. Well looky there... it will even build you a fine church facility.

It's only price is that you put it first. Now it doesn't mind you doing something symbolic for the true God. Make a sandwhich for a hungry person...write a song about giving all for God...as long as you secretly reserve your utmost worship for money in fear and trepidation.

This is the scenareo of living in Bablyon I would paint to anyone who thinks God has called them to make money for Him. Be careful brothers! Some people think Boa Constrictors make great pets untill they wrap themselves around them or their children. The Christian falls prey to money not because they dream of being famous, driving luxury cars, and sporting big houses...the well intentioned Christian is decieved and captured the moment they think money is vital to building God's kingdom...for building churches, ''ministries' and other 'spiritual' things.

All that is needed to build God's kingdom is truth. I know I'm speaking to the choir here...but this simple point is so often buried under a million so-called deeper secrets in the church these days. There are many ministries who have everything money can buy except this one heavenly commodity: truth. Truth in speaking and truth in right living. This is the difference between the power of Godliness and the mere form of it.

Who am I to say these things? Sadly I'm a culprit. In fact I may be the worst here...learn from my mistakes bro. Do we think we are immune just because we scoff at the Word of Faith and vulgar prosperity preachers who seem to want money only to buy the things of the world, while we want to use money for heavenly things? On the contrary, perhaps we who have spiritual plans for the money we tarry and live for are even more at risk because our misguided hope is stealthier...more 'spiritual.' So let's stop dreaming about how money is going to do great things for God...For such dreams many prophets and preachers carve and sell away a little piece at a time the truth God has entrusted them with in order to 'advance' God's kingdom. This is worldly wisdom running the church...we step by step lose confiidence in the power of Godliness, while being convinced of the power of money, all so we can dutifully project a form of Godliness. (We call that 'reaching' people....)

Money has always promised to advance God's kingdom! And yet look at where we are today. Though they had their sins, our ancestors remnant were still a more Godly people 150 years ago. What has our technocratic Babylon and it's money done for us who were once more Godly? It's bargain has corrupted our heavenly hopes, atrophied our faith, cooled our love, and dimmed our eternal vision.

The good news is that our sermons, and our worship music has never been selling better.

I know you feel the same way bro...just laying these things out in the public forum for all of us. You certainly have a stronger sense of God's calling then I ever remember having at your age. Even so I encourage you...resist selling the truths you've learned in God though the world bargains hard with all it's safety and security. This is our deepest faith in God, the kind of faith you have been calling people to have. Be careful not to dilute that message with other kinds of faith. If the system ever does collapse, it won't be your ability to hand out sandwiches that will attract and help people...but that you know your God.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/26 9:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I never realised that Joyce Meyer was a prosperity preacher! Are you sure the recorded words were in context?



I used to listen to her to until a friend of mine showed me things about her that shocked me. They were not little things but a continual and blatant prosperity message that is apposed to the cross of Jesus Christ.

I can personally assure you that those quotes are completely in context within both the sermons they were extracted from and her over all message.

In Christ – Jim

 2007/2/26 9:19
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Ironman,

I will do my best to address your questions. I ask your forgiveness for being a bit harsh in other posts. The truth of what I am saying seems to me to be as obvious as the nose on my face, therefore I find myself a bit impatient and ungraceous toward you. For this I apologize. Still I honestly can't figure out why you don't see it.

Please allow me to explain as well as I can.

Back in the mid eighties I read a few books that dealt with what is termed the "New Age". This is a religion of sorts that believes that mankind has unlimited potential and can find a higher self. Shirley McClane is perhaps the most visible believer in this 'religion'. She claims to have had this sudden revelation that she was herself a god.

In the books exposing this New Ageism, the authors brought to light one of the practices used by these New Age practitioners. It is the very same practice of looking within your own imagination to discover 'imaginary' spirit guides who will then lead you to the truth within yourself. This is the pathway to SELF realization. This same practice was then traced back to early occultic practices by shamans. To the best of my recollection these were a sort of witch doctor. I no longer have these books so I can't give you a great deal more information about the when where and who regarding these shamans.

Let me ask you a question. Can you find anywhere in scripture that indicates that we should seek understanding or special revelation from angels? The scripture states quite plainly that the Holy Spirit was given to us and HE will teach us.

I beg you as lovingly as I can to pray earnestly for discernment. I remember a similar problem you were having discerning the errors in word of faith teaching. Many things can look good but aren't. Scripture points out that the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light in order to deceive. It follows then that we really must be very careful to sift everything through the word of God.

You had a question regarding fixing a goal in your mind and focusing on that goal until it has been attained. Can you support this practice with scripture? Does not the scripture tell us to focus on things above. Should our focus not be on Jesus? Seek first the kingdom of God. Seeking wealth, no matter how honest the intention is not God's way. Can you not see that perhaps you are being subtly seduced to travel down a misguided road?

Let me close with a quote from Napoleon Hill. "I will induce others to serve me because of my willingness to serve others."

in·duce 1. to lead or move by persuasion or influence, as to some action or state of mind: to induce a person to buy a raffle ticket.

The willingness to serve others half of this statement makes it seem godly. We're supposed to serve right? But what part of inducing someone to do anything falls under godly behavior? What part of getting someone to serve you is godly behavior?

My dear brother, I beg of you to come to your senses. Napoleon Hill wrote Think and Grow Rich in large part from revelations, not from the word of God or the Holy Spirit, or even from scripture, but from 'imaginary' spirit guides. Angels are not in the business of imparting special revelation to anyone. What is left? Either we believe that this stuff simply came from deep within his own self or we conclude that these were 'angels of light' deceiving him.

I pray that you hear my heart in this.

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/26 12:51Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 The Beauty of Fellowship Strikes Again

bro MC
i bless God for you bro because in some ways through you He reveals to me how i feel sometimes. this is the beauty of fellowship at work again.

riding 2 horses? now that would be feat! :-P

Quote:
Of course I agree with this in theory. Then again theorectically it isn't sex or political power that corrupts the soul either. Like they say, "guns don't kill people, people kill people."



i guess these things amplify what is already there. a gun can kill people, though someone needs to be there to pull the trigger.

Quote:
Yet, there is something missing in this detached perspective. Money does indeed amplify the heart...but I am also concluding that too much of it weakens the heart.



and you bring up a good point here also because of the danger of leaning to much on it and less and less on God. We ought to remain on guard.

Quote:
These days we have plenty of self-sufficient saints, always looking inward for their guidance to an inner voice. Self-sufficiency is regarded as strength to the world, but I find in Christ it is weakness. Money only enables this myopy further.



True, very true hence we should ever be on guard lest we lean on anything else outside of God. you said it right here:

Quote:
Now we are talking not so much about paper engravings of the Presidents, or long digital positive numbers smiling back at you when you visit your online bank...we are talking about a system that provides all of your needs and even a few fantasies in a way that replaces God.



which is in short the design of the enemy's system in this world to distract us from Him by any means necessary.

Quote:
I was out with my family this weekend at a shopping mall. How wildly sensual, violent, and yet luxurious and civilized our 'babylon' is! The voice of God is very squelched in our world...not just because of money but because of the whole pagan penumbra that not only blots out the Son, (even in most churches) but also lovingly provides for your every need---as long as you serve it faithfully. It will provide insurance for your children, cures for your deseases, a roof over your head, let you sleep safe and sound at night next to a beautiful spouse, fill your belly with whatever suits you, and your mind with amusement, and it will even give you a deep sense of purpose and identity. Well looky there... it will even build you a fine church facility.



whoa, isn't the enemy slick, pandering to our senses to keep us stimulated and then lead us off track.

Quote:
This is the scenareo of living in Bablyon I would paint to anyone who thinks God has called them to make money for Him. Be careful brothers! Some people think Boa Constrictors make great pets untill they wrap themselves around them or their children. The Christian falls prey to money not because they dream of being famous, driving luxury cars, and sporting big houses...the well intentioned Christian is decieved and captured the moment they think money is vital to building God's kingdom...for building churches, ''ministries' and other 'spiritual' things.



someone said we are not tempted with the vile things but the most noble. indeed we ought to be wary that we stay true to whatever it is God has called us lest we do anything which seems good enough but is outside of what we are called to do. is money needed to get by here, sure but when Christ came He didn't come with that, He came in the Name of the Father and by His Spirit. perhaps in some areas we have replaced this Spirit with other things?

Quote:
Who am I to say these things? Sadly I'm a culprit. In fact I may be the worst here...learn from my mistakes bro. Do we think we are immune just because we scoff at the Word of Faith and vulgar prosperity preachers who seem to want money only to buy the things of the world, while we want to use money for heavenly things? On the contrary, perhaps we who have spiritual plans for the money we tarry and live for are even more at risk because our misguided hope is stealthier...more 'spiritual.' So let's stop dreaming about how money is going to do great things for God...For such dreams many prophets and preachers carve and sell away a little piece at a time the truth God has entrusted them with in order to 'advance' God's kingdom. This is worldly wisdom running the church...we step by step lose confiidence in the power of Godliness, while being convinced of the power of money, all so we can dutifully project a form of Godliness. (We call that 'reaching' people....)



i guess these are the more noble things which we can be tempted by. indeed we agree and acknowledge that there are those who are called to such.

Quote:
Money has always promised to advance God's kingdom! And yet look at where we are today. Though they had their sins, our ancestors remnant were still a more Godly people 150 years ago. What has our technocratic Babylon and it's money done for us who were once more Godly? It's bargain has corrupted our heavenly hopes, atrophied our faith, cooled our love, and dimmed our eternal vision.



can you say LAODICEA?!

Quote:
I know you feel the same way bro...just laying these things out in the public forum for all of us. You certainly have a stronger sense of God's calling then I ever remember having at your age. Even so I encourage you...resist selling the truths you've learned in God though the world bargains hard with all it's safety and security. This is our deepest faith in God, the kind of faith you have been calling people to have. Be careful not to dilute that message with other kinds of faith. If the system ever does collapse, it won't be your ability to hand out sandwiches that will attract and help people...but that you know your God.



thank you bro. like i said, i bless God for this fellowship because i have learned much here. indeed we share the same sentiments on this and on the issue of the truth of God. i bless God that in the face of opposition, more and more He is giving me grace enough to compromise the truth, less and less. it's not easy for the flesh but we have grace enough for all things through Him. indeed i bless God for knowing me and bringing me to knowing Him. at first when God called me to the ministry, i didn't have a vision for financial provision. i've realized that God does minister to physical needs and has called some to that. i bless God though that He dealt with me such that i feel a greater urgency toward eternity (which is the issue with infinately more weight) which affects how i have come to view this ministry of provision. the idea is not so much to provide for people (that's a byproduct) but to point people toward God. providing for people (giving a sandwich as you said, i like that analogy) is one way, but the evidence of God being present in one's life is a much more powerful way to draw people into Him. i'm reminded of the multitudes who followed Christ while He did miracles, there were nowhere to be found after He said "eat my flesh and drink my blood" they all vanished. contrast them with the disciples for came to Christ before He did anything and were there even after the multitudes left. The presence of the Spirit of God through Christ locked them into following Him until they died, the legacy of which we see today. now it's our turn.

God bless you bro Mike


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/26 15:02Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 reasoning together

bro Doug

Quote:
I will do my best to address your questions. I ask your forgiveness for being a bit harsh in other posts. The truth of what I am saying seems to me to be as obvious as the nose on my face, therefore I find myself a bit impatient and ungraceous toward you. For this I apologize. Still I honestly can't figure out why you don't see it.



i appreciate the apology, there was no offense taken because i know you were not looking to do harm. i see your concern and it is much appreciated.

Quote:
Back in the mid eighties I read a few books that dealt with what is termed the "New Age". This is a religion of sorts that believes that mankind has unlimited potential and can find a higher self. Shirley McClane is perhaps the most visible believer in this 'religion'. She claims to have had this sudden revelation that she was herself a god.



i'm not very familiar with what new ageism is except to say it is weird, more than that it is demonic no doubt. mankind has oft sought ways to elevate itself, we are rather vain creatures and the enemy always plays on this in one form or another.

Quote:
In the books exposing this New Ageism, the authors brought to light one of the practices used by these New Age practitioners. It is the very same practice of looking within your own imagination to discover 'imaginary' spirit guides who will then lead you to the truth within yourself. This is the pathway to SELF realization. This same practice was then traced back to early occultic practices by shamans. To the best of my recollection these were a sort of witch doctor. I no longer have these books so I can't give you a great deal more information about the when where and who regarding these shamans.



yes indeed and we know that this is of the enemy because it points away from God. in the enemy's desperation, he has gotten some to worship anything and everything as God except God Himself.

Quote:
Let me ask you a question. Can you find anywhere in scripture that indicates that we should seek understanding or special revelation from angels? The scripture states quite plainly that the Holy Spirit was given to us and HE will teach us.



of course there is nowhere where we are told to seek revelation from angels, God forbid! however in our seeking of Him is He not free to use these agents to that end? Did John not receive the Revelation from an angel sent by God? was Daniel not visited by Gabriel when He sought God about the dreams he had been having? it is one thing to seek after angels but it is another entirely for God to send them and He still does.

Quote:
I beg you as lovingly as I can to pray earnestly for discernment. I remember a similar problem you were having discerning the errors in word of faith teaching. Many things can look good but aren't. Scripture points out that the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light in order to deceive. It follows then that we really must be very careful to sift everything through the word of God.



bro, like i said in reference to the word of faith movement, sure they have some things wrong. there are principles which have been misapplied or straight up been perverted but if we look at them through the word, they are put into proper context for proper use. this seems to be something that i can't seem to get across, i'm not just running with the wof principles without questioning them, but i see some (not all by the way) as being properly valid when applied in proper context. for example, Peter told that begger by the temple "in the name of Jesus get up" and he did. all his life that man was a cripple and peter spoke to him as though he wasn't. name it and claim it seems to be applied to stuff that we want but Peter named this and claimed it (i see this as being the very same principle) and it was done, but this was under unction. bro i seek always for our Lord to show me whatever it is He needs to, by whatever means necessary and so He does without leading me into trouble.

Quote:
You had a question regarding fixing a goal in your mind and focusing on that goal until it has been attained. Can you support this practice with scripture? Does not the scripture tell us to focus on things above. Should our focus not be on Jesus? Seek first the kingdom of God. Seeking wealth, no matter how honest the intention is not God's way. Can you not see that perhaps you are being subtly seduced to travel down a misguided road?



yes we are to focus on Christ always, however if one has been given a vision/goal from on High, how is focusing on that (assuming it is done properly that is) any different from focusing on He who gave the vision/goal?i understand your concern but also you need to know that this focus (as i see it in it's true context) on a goal is to focus on the one who gave the goal in the first place.ok now on seeking the kingdom of God, does this not also mean seeking what God has called us to do? or is the work for which we shall be rewarded in heaven a separate thing. if God has said to you, go evangelize in Russia, and He calls me to fast and pray for a year, are we not both doing the work of the kingdom? there are those who have been called to a work of stewardship and so that does require money in some cases. if our Lord doesn't say that He will let it rain from heaven (which He could if it suited His purpose) then it means doing whatever it is He says do. God provides for us in the physical and as long as He does, money will have some role to play. now can money corrupt? sure and so we are to always be on guard. one can even become corrupt and puffed up at seeing God do mighty things through Him, so we ought always to be on guard of pride whether we seek revelation from God, power or anything else.

just as surely as the enemy can come and make a lie seem like truth, the enemy can also make the truth seem like a lie.

Quote:
Let me close with a quote from Napoleon Hill. "I will induce others to serve me because of my willingness to serve others."



ok, how else would you get anyone to serve you except to serve them first? isn't that what Christ did, He served us before we could serve Him so that we could be drawn into serving Him. i don't think that what he said should be seen as some sort of manipulation into serving him for his own selfish gain. if you want someone's help, don't you find a way to help them first? that's the best way.i see this inducing more like wooing. God woos us does He not? He draws us into Himself by meeting us where we are and tending to us.

Quote:
The willingness to serve others half of this statement makes it seem godly. We're supposed to serve right? But what part of inducing someone to do anything falls under godly behavior? What part of getting someone to serve you is godly behavior?



like i said i don't think this is about hustling anyone into anything but really about serving others as being the example of how to behave and what will happen in response. if you serve someone, will someone not serve you?if you don't serve, who do you expect to serve you?

Quote:
My dear brother, I beg of you to come to your senses. Napoleon Hill wrote Think and Grow Rich in large part from revelations, not from the word of God or the Holy Spirit, or even from scripture, but from 'imaginary' spirit guides. Angels are not in the business of imparting special revelation to anyone. What is left? Either we believe that this stuff simply came from deep within his own self or we conclude that these were 'angels of light' deceiving him.



so what about John? Daniel? Abraham? did they not receive revelation from angels? who gave JOhn the revelation? who explained to Daniel the meaning of what he had seen and dreamed? and was Abraham not warned by an angel of the impending doom of sodom and gomorrah? Are angels not ministering Spirits? is not part of their ministry to reveal the things of God when and how He sees fit?

or perhaps you don't see this? at any rate, this is nothing to break fellowhip over. my conscience is clear, i'm not involved in anything shady, simply doing what i know God has called me to and instructed me to do. i know you are doing the same.

God bless you bro


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/26 20:45Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re: reasoning together

There is a key difference between angels giving revelation, or more accurately, being a messenger, and closing your eyes and summoning imaginary guides in the hoping they are angels. You seem bound and determined to be deluded. Go ahead!


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/26 21:07Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug

Quote:

John173 wrote:
There is a key difference between angels giving revelation, or more accurately, being a messenger, and closing your eyes and summoning imaginary guides in the hoping they are angels. You seem bound and determined to be deluded. Go ahead!



ahh but i certainly don't practise that at all so there is no delusion there. if in fact such was practised by Napoleon hill, i have no part in that in anywise! i told you, i'm not buying into everything he said in the context of vileness from the enemy as you see it, but in the context of our Lord's truth. just as surely as the enemy can present the lie as the truth, he can also smear the truth and make it look as though it were a lie. there is truth in some places where it would seem there could be none. the baptists have some things right (for example, not baptist-bashing here) and others wrong but we dont discount them altogether do we? no, we dig and mine for what is indeed of God and hold onto it.

i'm not reading this book through my own eyes but filtering it through God. i do this with all things but somehow that always gets missed. anyhow this is not something i would break fellowship over and i hope you wouldn't either. God's will be done and whatever things which need loosing be loosed and whatever needs binding be bound. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/26 23:51Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Hey ironman,

No, it's not worth breaking fellowship over. I'm of the mind that if something were written by someone under direct inspiration from demons I wouldn't be attempting to find truth in it period, filtered through the word or not. I am of the strongest conviction that is the case with the book in question. I also believe that if I knew the bible inside and out I could show you in the word that doing so isn't appropriate. I don't and can't so take that thought for what it's worth.

In Him,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/27 0:06Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug
very well

edit

hey by the way bro, i will be on the lookout for anything shady and will bring it up for discussion. i've not gone far in the book so i will let you know what i find


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/27 0:17Profile





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