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todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Mark,


Quote:
"do you think that if you look poor or in fact are poor, your not in God's will?"

I think you must not have closely read my other posts. I feel I have already touched on this. But to answer quickly I will say "not neccessarily."

Quote:
"do you think Jesus would be preaching this himself if he was here"

This seems like one of those dangerous hypathetical questions that I don't feel it's wise to get into. I also am not sure what you are referring to as "this." Maybe if you clarify for me I will try to comment.

Quote:
"does it save souls? and if so what is the reason for conversion?"

Does what save souls? Teaching about prosperity? If you are talking about the true meaning of salvation (sozo) which I understand as wholeness for the spirit, body, and soul (i.e. salvation, healing, and deliverance) then I guess it might possibly help in the deliverance area (which would refer to "sav[ing] souls" as you put it, because deliverance deals largley with the soul realm, though I am thinking this might not have been what you were looking for) if there is a curse (esp. of poverty) going on.

I hope that made sense.

Delboy,

Quote:
"Todd, alot has been recommended to you surely enough evidence to say "prosperity/faith teaching you are guilty as set out before us"

I guess I don't share your opinion here. Can you support this statement for me so I can get a clearer understanding of why you think you can make such a claim? What evidence?

QUote:

"would'nt mind your thoughts on poverty as has been raised by others?

Could you be more specific? I feel like I have shared some of my thoughts in this area.

Quote:
"Also do you have any view on this quote from previous post

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

just a thought,I dont see the prosperity/faith movement springing up in the third world or Asia & China etc it seems popular and rooted in the west
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"

I don't know if I would call it a "view" at this point. But I have some thoughts. First of all, how good of a grasp do you have of teaching movements in the 3rd world? I have very little so I don't know if the issue you pose is accurate at all.

I also don't really understand the direct connection between teaching about prosperity and the faith movement. Are they really interchangable as your "/" implies? Or is it that teachers in the "faith movement" (equally as vague to me as the term "prosperity movement") seem to teach about prosperity more than other streams within the Church?

Futher, it makes perfect sense to me that it would be more popular in the place where it originated and where information travels so fast, etc, as opposed to the third world. I see multiple possibilites why this would be the case (if it is in fact true).

The largest church in the world (in Korea), also comes to mind. I think this church would probably be considered a part of these elusive movements we speak of. But I don't know if Korea is considered third world. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Quote:
" settle this quick dear brother"

What's the hurry? I think it will almost always lead to deception or misunderstanding to try and figure these things out in a hurried, hasty manner.

 2004/3/16 22:05Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

I suggest that we clarify the original question before we start defending or attacking our own idea of the "prosperity movement". It is clear from this thread that understanding varies.

The original questions are still good:

(1) Characterise what constitutes the "prosperity movement" and who its primary proponents are today.

(2) What is the (brief) history of the "prosperity movement"?

It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticise or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack).


_________________
Sam

 2004/3/17 11:49Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Quote:
Todd, alot has been recommended to you surely enough evidence to say "prosperity/faith teaching you are guilty as set out before us"


Hi Todd, when I meant evidence this was in view of the post replies given to you already. This is overwhelming to give you a clear view.
Agent001 says
Quote:
It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticise or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack).


I think that from Todd's first thread that peoples spiritual discernment has come through rather than specific quotes.(in respect to the prosperity error we are talking about)
If specific quotes are wanted this then takes the thread on to another direction
This of course is fine but more involved.Can i Suggest we review the articles and preaching sermons given in previous posts from clutch,sermonindex and philologos :-)


_________________
derek Eyre

 2004/3/17 12:22Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I think Agent001 is on the right track if anyone is truly interested in getting at any truth here. I definately understand if some of you don't want to invest the time and effort to do that, but I think it is a good idea.

Quote:
"It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticise or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack)."

Thanks for that insight. I think this "strawman" gets at the idea I wrote earlier
as a "ghost concept that has conveniently become a scapegoat and excuse for a weak Church." Could the scapegoat be a strawman?

I think it might be the case that most people are looking at a strawman when they think about this prosperity thing. That has pretty much been my experience in the past and seems pretty accurate to this thread. Hopefully we can be more specific from here on out as to avoid critisizing something that doesn't even exist.

QUote:
"Hi Todd, when I meant evidence this was in view of the post replies given to you already. This is overwhelming to give you a clear view."

I don't see it as even close to overwhelming. In fact, I see hardly any objective evidence of anything at this point.

QUote:
"I think that from Todd's first thread that peoples spiritual discernment has come through rather than specific quotes"

Isn't it kind of arrogant to call that spiritual discernment? What I have seen come through at this point, for the most part, appears to be more like people's opinions based on assumptions that haven't been backed up by any concrete evidence (at least that have been specifically cited). Getting specific and using real sources is how we can avoid this.

Quote:
"If specific quotes are wanted this then takes the thread on to another direction
This of course is fine but more involved."

This is more of the kind of direction I am hoping we can go on.

Quote:
" Can i Suggest we review the articles and preaching sermons given in previous posts from clutch,sermonindex and philologos."

Great suggestion. Hopefully we will find some time to do this. Let me know whatever you come up with that seems relevant and I will do the same.

 2004/3/19 20:11Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2733
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: prosperity movement

Todd, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the following testimony of Ms. Tricia Tillin concerning the word-faith movement, it touches on prosperity teaching. It's a bit lengthy but an interesting read. Unlike myself, she seems to have considerable experience with this movement.


[url=http://www.banner.org.uk/wof/mytest.html]Tricia Tillin's Word of Faith Testimony[/url]

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2004/3/19 21:23Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Ron,

This is highly recommended. Have written to her in the past to encourage her as she deals with many issues that can be repulsive to the spirit.

Quote:

[i]More Concerns

Jon and I pressed on with the Study Books, but increasingly we felt ill at ease with them. "Where does God come into all this?" we asked. It's all about OUR faith, and OUR use of the Word. Chapter headings such as "How to Write Your Own Ticket With God" and "You Can have What You Say" jarred my spirit - not because I was lacking in faith or bound by religious dogma, but because I knew and loved God through Jesus Christ - and this wasn't the way I saw God or Jesus, as beings to be manipulated into providing everything we wanted. I had more respect for the Almighty than that. And besides, my own experience in the Christian life had taught me that you DON'T get "all you say", even if you say it continually, with faith. There are some things that God loves you enough NOT to give!

The emphasis on prosperity for all believers jarred also. Don't get me wrong. I had nothing against the principle that God blesses and provides for his people, and I did see prosperity as a blessing from God. However, this was again taken to extremes. Hagin wrote "God wants his children to eat the best, to wear the best clothing, to drive the best cars, and he wants them to have the best of everything." In an ideal world, maybe. But I also subscribed to a few missionary support groups and charities, and I knew from the literature that arrived that beloved, God-fearing believers in other parts of the country were not only impoverished, but sometimes starving, unclothed and dying. Others were in prison for their faith. Did this mean they were unable to exercise faith to receive "the best of everything" or was God being partisan in only blessing people in affluent Western countries?[/i]

Edit:

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 [b]And others[/b] had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/3/20 8:20Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Let's restate the original question:

Quote:
Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you?



This was what was asked and we replied.
So to assert that we now have constructed a 'straw-man' is unfair. You asked for [i]opinions[/i].

Went back through this entire thread and certainly it has evolved a bit, but there is some troubling aspects:

Todd wrote:
Quote:
Who is to draw the line and say "You are too focused on prosperity"? According to who? As far as I can tell, God didn't draw any clear lines and say, "You can only preach about prosperity 3 times per year. If you preach 4 or more times, you are officially thrown into the category of 'Prosperity Movement' and you are teaching falsehood and it's an abomination to Me."



This is a "straw-man" argument in itself.

Quote:
Like I mentioned before, I guess I don't know how to discern this apparently false teaching. I mean, does God have nothing to say about this subject? Would anyone here say that it is false to ever preach about prosperity? Or, as Greg seemed to indicate, is it more a matter of focus that makes it false? I would tend to agree that if the pastor talks exclusively about prosperity every Sunday for an entire year, something is probably wrong. But even then, how do I know? And as an outsider (in the sense that I don't know the pastor or the people that go to the church), do I have any right to criticize unless God specifically directs me?



Yes you do have a 'right' to criticize any teaching that is unsound, harmful and destructive to believers, especially those that are new to the faith.

Quote:
"It would also help to cite direct sources of the movement's proponents when you criticize or defend them. Otherwise, it is quite easy to build up what philosophers call the "straw man argument" (misrepresent one's arguments and then attack)."



If you want to make a statement like that you have to consider your own position when you say:
Quote:
I think this "straw-man" gets at the idea I wrote earlier as a "ghost concept that has conveniently become a scapegoat and excuse for a weak Church." Could the scapegoat be a straw-man?

I think it might be the case that most people are looking at a straw-man when they think about this prosperity thing. That has pretty much been my experience in the past and seems pretty accurate to this thread. Hopefully we can be more specific from here on out as to avoid criticizing something that doesn't even exist.



This is an audacious statement. This has been your experience? Where is your defense?
And you ask us to be more specific?
If this has indeed evolved to where you want evidence over opinion then you need to bring forth that evidence. This is very confusing.
How can you state [i]"to avoid criticizing something that doesn't even exist"[/i]
What doesn't exist? The whole "Prosperity Movement"?

What are you saying here?
My initial gut reaction was, "are you kidding me?"

Something is askew here.

Quote:
What I have seen come through at this point, for the most part, appears to be more like people's opinions based on assumptions that haven't been backed up by any concrete evidence (at least that have been specifically cited). Getting specific and using real sources is how we can avoid this.



Again
[url=http://www.jimbakkershow.com/word.html]http://www.jimbakkershow.com/word.html[/url]

Did you read any of this? I am really curious.
It might take some time to do so, but isn't that what you are asking for?

Quote:
"If specific quotes are wanted this then takes the thread on to another direction

Quote:
This is more of the kind of direction I am hoping we can go on.



Thats fine, but you can't make general statements on the one hand and then complain that we are not being specific enough. It works both ways.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you here.
But it seems that you are defending that which you admittedly have little knowledge about.
It is disheartening to those who have and to some extent are still being affected by the fallout of these doctrines. The problem is that I am still dealing with a lot of these issues with my own family. There is a jump to defend, not on a biblical basis but on a set of teachings that have been twisted and misapplied. Because like all deception there is truth mixed with error the impulse is to defend the teachers without carefully examining whether or not those teachings actually line up with scripture or not. And I was no different at the first.

That is precisely why this is so dangerous. It is not a matter of just presenting well reasoned arguments to those who have been so entrenched in these teachings and by that I mean all the catch phrase's that have been used to describe these aberrations: "word of faith, name it and claim it, health and wealth, prosperity gospel". Those 'terms' seem to offend in and of themselves, but we have to call it something. It is not all cut and dry, it is convoluted and complex and becomes a mindset that is hard to disassemble, to 'unlearn'. It took me a long time to wrestle with and realize that I had fallen for so much error in the church I was attending, and the associated teachers, my experience being very similar to that of Tricia's and I do hope you read what she has written. She has put forth a lot of effort to explain and give evidence to the deception that is inherent in these teachings. Not only in the article cited by Ron but throughout her site.

There are many that have been severely harmed financially, physically as well as spiritually by all this and this is a subject matter that can't be explained away as an over exaggeration or being non-existent. And it does in this case of 'prosperity' stem from the same source of teachings.

That may not be specific enough for you, but if you want to take the time to look at Tricia's site
I believe you will find much of the evidence that you are looking for.

This is not what our Lord shed His precious blood for, I don't care how you want to couch it.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/3/20 10:57Profile
Clinto
Member



Joined: 2004/1/25
Posts: 2


 Re: "Prosperity Movement"

here is a link to an interesting article about the "faith movement"

http://www.newwineonline.com/html/an_examination_of_the_word-fai.html

 2004/3/20 11:26Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Hey Todd,Mike's last post is straight to the point and captures all the opinions of replies to your origional post
I to have seen close friends affected by this movemnt
dear brother we are not argueing for arguments sake against this vast subject


quote;
Forgive me if I have misunderstood you here.
But it seems that you are defending that which you admittedly have little knowledge about.
It is disheartening to those who have and to some extent are still being affected by the fallout of these doctrines


_________________
derek Eyre

 2004/3/20 11:51Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thanks Clinto

Also a warm welcome to you!

Here is another from the same site, linking more articles:

[url=http://www.newwineonline.com/html/word-faith.html]http://www.newwineonline.com/html/word-faith.html[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/3/20 12:01Profile





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