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todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 "Prosperity Movement"

Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you?
Perhaps a breif history and definition. Please be specific.

 2004/3/9 21:44Profile
Paulus
Member



Joined: 2004/1/15
Posts: 87
Celbridge Kildare Ireland

 Re: "Prosperity Movement"

Todd

I have only had a little exposure to Prosperity With a guy called Dr Tayo who operates out of London. Basically it is a Gospel that takes the promises of God and overplays them ie it overplays them suggesting that the Christian should expect to be bless in abundance.

A example might be from the psalms " He daily loads us with benefits" to a prosperity teacher this will be material wealth. To the discerning
it can also be the exact opposite as troubles and scarce resources make us rely on God and at the same time are used in the onging sanctifciation.St Pauls account "I am content" in whatever state I am in and his shipwrecks and hardship must be a real pain to Prosperity teachers.

The sad thing is people who give to these guys so that they can "reap" a return. A real twist on giving your all to Christ. If you give it should be done for Christ not to get multiples back.

I would suggest that if you have anyone stuck in a prosperity church that you give the a copy of
"ten shekels and shirt".

Dr Tayo whom I mentioned spent a half hour before he spoke (preached!) selling his tapes and books.
He also had two young brothers who he literally treated as his servants, they carried his bible ironed his shirts, folded his hankies, and had to hand him a freshly made cup of coffee as he stepped off the alter. It was so sad to watch.
sadder was that so many bought his books the conference was only saved from disaster because the next speaker was Pastor Carter from TSC, and boy did the Holy Spirit redirect His people.


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Paul R Carley

 2004/3/10 9:04Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The prosperity movement is a manifestation of the faith movement. The underlying thesis is that faith is evidenced in material consequences. In this scheme of things a man with a little faith, will have a small bank balance, a small house and a small car. The man with more faith will have a larger bank balance, a larger house and a larger car. The man with great faith will have a great bank balance, a great house and a great car.

If this reasoning is correct Our Lord Jesus had no faith at all, as he had neither bank balance, car nor roof over his head. I rest my case.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/3/10 10:12Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hear! Hear! Ron!

Wonder what they would do with this:
From ye old Websters 1828 Dictionary

[u]Prosperity[/u]

PROSPER'ITY, n. [L. prosperitas.] Advance or gain in any thing good or desirable; successful progress in any business or enterprise; success; attainment of the object desired; as the prosperity of arts; agricultural or commercial prosperity; national prosperity. [b]Our disposition to abuse the blessings of providence renders prosperity dangerous.[/b]

The prosperity of fools shall destroy them. Prov
1.

Personally, what does it mean to me?



Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

What does it mean to them?

An example, not verbatim...'I was telling Taffy the other day, ...it dawned on me, did you realize we are millionaires?' Creeflo Dollar

At who's expense?

Oh, this is a hot button with me, manipulating Gods word, manipulating people...the audacity of these people. Have heard every stinking con and clever trick in the book from the likes of these. Was ignorantly caught up in this early on, seed faith, formulas...this is from the pit of hell.
Dare them to preach this in some poor 3rd world country.

Fleecing the flock...
They should be trembling with fear

Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.



Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Is it any wonder?


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/10 11:30Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Todd,

Which part of history do you mean? Do you want to talk about Balaam who prophesied against Israel for money? What about those who propheised in Isaiah's time. He lamented that the people said not to prophecy right things, but smooth things. How about the peace and prosperity preachers during the reign of King Josiah who opposed the ministry of Jeremiah?

What about those whom Paul warned about in 1st Timothy where he prophesied that these minsiters would teach that gain is godliness? Or Jude? Or Revelations warnings to Laodicea? They said they had become rich and were in need of nothing. Yet they were naked and ashamed.

How about the middle ages? The Catholic Church sold indulgences and guarenteed forgivenvess for a price. It was the proverbial straw that sparked the protestant reformation.

In the 1700's and 1800's they were called religious hucksters.

But I think you're wanting to talk about recent history. Well, while you can find multiple sources, the primary source would probably be E.W. Kenyon. He was plagarized by the late Kenneth Haggin. Oral Roberts speerheaded the "seed-faith" teaching. And Kenneth Copeland became their poster-boy for a time.

But I don't think it's history that's as important as the principle of this teaching. Does it stand up to scripture, no. The purpose of a Christian on this earth is to glorify Christ in a fallen world. We are to be sojourners in a foreign land looking for better home that is everlasting. Our faith is not to be spent on earthly riches but on heavenly ones. Prosperity ministers can't get their eyes on heaven because that's not where their treasure lies. Their faith, or lack of it, is totally measured by the vanity of this world. What they possess becomes the measure of their faith. One minister even teaches that to be poor is to be ungodly. I can't think of his name right off hand, but he was popular for teaching the "hundred-fold blessing." That is diametricly opposed to the Gospel! (hey crsschk, this one gets my blood boiling to...lol) Our faith is not measured by material things, but by our possession of Christ! If Jesus lives in my heart I'm a new creature, all things are made new. And if I'm poor, well praise God, and if I'm rich, well praise God, it's all gonna burn anyway. Let me live for Christ alone. William Booth told his salvation army that, "Our business is Heaven on earth." Let us live as such.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/3/10 13:33Profile
JKail
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Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 34


 Re:

My parents were saved almost 20 years ago and at the time were very poor with three young children and another on the way...They went to a prosperity church a few times, but praise the Lord that He gave them discernment to leave right away, especially because as young Christians, its easy to be naive to false teaching. They just knew that something was off...

I don't know any more about the modern prosperity movement than has alreay been posted, but i have a few more questions:

How widespread is it? I hear that it is spreading all over the world, is this true? Shouldn't there be more christians speaking out against it, especially in charasmatic/pentecostal type circles? I have heard a few speak out, such as David Wilkerson and maybe there are more that I just haven't heard...One thing is for sure, the Bible has given us PLENTY of warnings against false teachings so there is no reason for us to be surprised.

It seems like many people associate this type of teaching with all charismatics/pentecostals, which is obviously wrong. I know from personal experience that people shy away from the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, in part because of this kind of teaching. (along with abuses in the name of the Spirit, which tend to go along with prosperity/word of faith teachers)

What a clever scheme of the devil...he gets people to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need more "John the Baptist" preachers in the church preaching repentance...Until then, I don't think we will see any positive change in the state of our lukewarm church...

In Christ,
Jake Kail




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Jake Kail

 2004/3/10 15:56Profile
sermonindex
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 Re:

Quote:
Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you?


Todd, I hope your question is out of clarification for others and not yourself. As far as I know you I respect that you are seeking after truth and righteousness, and depise dross and false teachings and unrighteousness. "Prosperity Movement" - just think about the words its a gathering of people and teachings and the focus is on prosperity. Prosperity is gain.. Gain in resources, assets, money, gold, etc.. and ohh yea lets throw in godliness also. the "Prosperity Movement" could also be more acurately termed the "prosperity gospel" for the teachings about it are tied into every facet and doctrine of Christian truth. They even use Jesus's death on the cross as a means of gaining freedom not over only sin but finances, debt, etc. What an eronous idea that people would belief that God wants to bless them with material gain as much as godly character. And as Ron (philogos) showed quite clearly they tie in how much faith (godly) you are with how much finincial gain you possess.

[b]1 Timothy 6:5[/b] - and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Don't even give the person who teaches these awful doctrines the light of day. They have been robbed of the truth and are blind guides who lead people into destruction. It saddens me greatly to see so many people who appear to be blessed of God and teach with a supposed powerful annointing but teach these corrupted doctrines.

Quote:
How widespread is it? I hear that it is spreading all over the world, is this true? Shouldn't there be more christians speaking out against it, especially in charasmatic/pentecostal type circles? I have heard a few speak out, such as David Wilkerson and maybe there are more that I just haven't heard...One thing is for sure, the Bible has given us PLENTY of warnings against false teachings so there is no reason for us to be surprised.


This in my mind is not laughing or frivilous matter to banter about.. its the falling away of saints into extreme falsehood and I really dont know if Christianity can be restored out of it. Its so wide spread and is going everywhere especially in charismatic/pentecostal circles, God help us!!!

David Wilkerson in this message preaches against this troubling movement that is infecting Christian circles like a cancer: [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2]Another Gospel by David Wilkerson[/url]

You MUST listen to this message dear reader of this post. We must open our eyes to what Christianity is falling into too! where are the prophets of God to speak against this? why are there so few voices?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/3/11 0:33Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Quote:
Since the term "Prosperity Movement" gets thrown around a bit on this site, I would appreciate hearing peoples opinions of what that term means to them. What does it mean to you?


A hearty Amen to all thats been said,
The properity/faith word movement has distorted scripture and often its preachers take scripture completely out of context and emphasise complete falsehoods and definitions.Also Guilt plays havoc with people who are told that God is like this.
Is the charecter of Christ as they say? No I'm afraid you will not find meakness and servanthood hallmarks of this movement
Also what about Paul the apostle..in his times of trial and lack did he lack faith? no of course not but through high mountain and low valley we take on more of the glorious lamb like qualities
Looking ahead & Up
Delboy


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derek Eyre

 2004/3/11 17:55Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Also there fixation on Abraham is distorted, please anyone look at the Abraham weekly studies on this site for genuine faith building.
the same is said of any false movement it mixes clear truth with heretical un truths which makes discernment the more harder for some
Many large churches springing up over here in the Uk are preaching a very Self focused gospel.Maybe thats why they are popular?
Looking ahead & up
Delboy


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derek Eyre

 2004/3/11 18:05Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Thanks all, for participating in this study.

Greg wrote:
"Todd, I hope your question is out of clarification for others and not yourself. As far as I know you I respect that you are seeking after truth and righteousness, and depise dross and false teachings and unrighteousness."

Well, to be honest, I guess it's more for me. I hear the term a lot, but it's very vague to me. And since I don't really know what it means and it's not easily definable (still hoping for a clearer definition), I don't know how or where to spot it. So I don't know if it's real.

Who is to draw the line and say "You are too focused on prosperity"? According to who? As far as I can tell, God didn't draw any clear lines and say, "You can only preach about prosperity 3 times per year. If you preach 4 or more times, you are officially thrown into the category of 'Prosperity Movement' and you are teaching falsehood and it's an abomination to Me."

Like I mentioned before, I guess I don't know how to discern this apparently false teaching. I mean, does God have nothing to say about this subject? Would anyone here say that it is false to ever preach about prosperity? Or, as Greg seemed to indicate, is it more a matter of focus that makes it false? I would tend to agree that if the pastor talks exclusively about prosperity every Sunday for an entire year, something is probably wrong. But even then, how do I know? And as an outsider (in the sense that I don't know the pastor or the people that go to the church), do I have any right to critisize unless God specifically directs me?

After all, could it not be [b]possible[/b], in theory, that God has directed the pastor in this way? That, perhaps, this church is under a curse of poverty that God wants broken and due to the fact that weak and broken humans are involved it is taking this prolonged effort?

And if this is possible, even if we can only accept it in theory, what right have we to ever point the finger?

Sure, we can muse about ideals like "Christians shouldn't care about money or material things", but it seems to me that the reality is that God uses money for His purposes and He is pleased to find people who are able to deal with it wisely and use it for HIs kingdom. And that He likes giving them more besides.

I guess what I am looking for is a tangible theory that I can put my hands on (so to speak) and see how it fits. Something that is testable. Because it seems possible to me that we are dealing with some ghost concept that has conveniently become a scapegoat and excuse for a weak Church.

 2004/3/11 19:42Profile





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