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FireinmyBones1
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Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Counterfeit Revival?

Greetings brothers and sisters in Jesus Name!
Tonight I write perhaps out of frustration, and hopefully not in the flesh. (although if I find out later that that was the case I apologize:))
I must admit however, that I was a bit surprised to see the featured sermon being, "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hanegraaff. I do not condemn brother Hank as a heretic, nor do I deny him salvation. I have however read portions of his book by the same title, and must tell you truthfully, it contains much false information.
I do not say this simply because I have been blessed to live in the midst of the Brownsville revival. I simply am concerned.
Burning,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/3/8 19:34Profile
FireinmyBones1
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Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re: Counterfeit Revival?

It's me again :)
I want to clarify myself just a bit so there is not confusion. I DO NOT, support much of what brother Hank writes in Counterfeit Revival. I do not support the prosperity message, the false prophetic spirit, or much of the flakiness he speaks of. I do, however, know that some of what he wrote in that book concerning some men has been refuted. There is one particular instance he writes of in the book concerning a young woman who was healed at Toronto. He totally "debunks" the so-called miracle. The facts are however that the young woman is still healthy and fine.
There are also many instances of men who are painted as preaching things that they have long since publicly renounced. (although I guess your past does catch up with you)
He also in the updated version has a fun time "debunking" the Brownsville Revival.
My friends, I lived there for two years of my life. I must say with all humility, I sincerely believe our Brother Hank to be in error here. If there has been a move of God this century it has occured at Brownsville. The claims of barking saints, demonic trances, altered states of consciousness and the like are to put it scholarly, "a bunch of hooey." :)
I know that when you have a church where "strange" things occur, many flakes will slip through the cracks.
I have a friend who is an usher at Brownsville. Part of his job is to remove flaky people who are being a distraction from the service. This include people attempting to interrupt the preaching by laughing etc...and many other things. (By the way this now Spirit-filled usher, was five years ago a drug dealer wanted by the authorities. And this man now is IN LOVE WITH JESUS. He's one of MANY.)
If I'm on a soapbox please forgive me. But having been transformed by the power of God through the Revival (Jesus) at Brownsville, I do take offense at things like this. I know many of the leaders there, and can attest to you that they are as against the prosperity, false personal prophecy movement, and flakiness as much as anyone I know. In fact that type of thinking was imparted to me through the men of God who trained me. The leaders at Brownsville are broken men. They are not hot shots who can't carry their own brief cases. They are (at least those I know) the most humble men and women I've met. I have not seen a man or a woman pray with as much passion, or as many tears, as I have those great men and women.
It is not my intention to be on the defensive here, and if I am I do apologize. It does bother me slightly though, that since I have been a part of that movement and unashamedly associate myself with it, that I am automatically labeled as a Charismatic flake who believes in prosperity and the like. My brothers and sisters I tell you, for the two years I lived there I saw a community that had been shaken by God's power. In '97 the crime rate rose 1% in every county in the state of Florida, except 2. The crime rate in Escambia County, where Pensacola is located, dropped 13%, and Santa Rosa county, the next county over, dropped 5%. (The mayor of Pensacola has attested that this was due to the revival) The police did not even have to patrol the areas around the church - and trust me Brownsville is in what we would call the "Ghetto".
Everywhere you go you meet men and women who had/have been touched by the fire of God. While there my classmates varied from ex-satanists, drug addicts, leaders of underground churches in 3rd world nations, business men, and average church kids all who had been touched by the power of the Holy Spirit through revival.
Never ONCE there were manifestations exalted, and the word of God neglected. Every week of my life I was called a fresh and anew to repentance. I have NEVER heard a more passionate preaching of the CROSS than in my two years there. Most contemporary "renewal" movements have stopped teaching the cross because thats not what gets the chickens clucking, but at Brownsville I heard the cross preached Weekly. While there I rubbed shoulder with life after life that was completely transformed. My brothers and sisters, I am not boasting about or lifting up a man or a place, but I cannot help but speak of the things which I've seen and heard. Let us be careful as to how we speak. I do not speak as a casual observer, or as a "repeater" of what man has told me, I've seen. I can tell you this, if what I've experienced was not the Power of Jesus Christ, than the devil sure has some strange tactics. Because I love Jesus more today than ever in my life. Blessings on you all today in the name of our Lord Jesus.
Burning,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/3/8 22:40Profile
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 Re: Counterfeit Revival?

Quote:
I must admit however, that I was a bit surprised to see the featured sermon being, "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hanegraaff. I do not condemn brother Hank as a heretic, nor do I deny him salvation. I have however read portions of his book by the same title, and must tell you truthfully, it contains much false information.


It's always easy to take a scape-goat and say I don't agree with either side so therefore I am right! but in this case I have to take that stand. I don't claim to know that much about this situation and all the complex doctrines and experiences, history behind it all. But I can say with a clear concience that there is much Christian practise that is a mockery to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. And there are some things being said against these teachers that promote this false gospel, but in my mind I don't see it adequate. There is a small minority of Men of God willing to proclaim truth in a day when people want their ears tickled with new doctrines.

I personally don't agree with everything that Hank Hanegraaff says in this sermon or book, but I do [b]fully[/b] agree with his spirit in that I can't sit quite and allow these false teachings to run rampant. One of the main reasons why I started this website Ministry was to perserve and show the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I have refused to add many speakers to this site based on that I believe they are false (even if some of what the person says is good), and I am not afraid to be bold in saying I don't agree at all with certain preachers, teachers in our day.

Hank takes a firm stance against 'Rodney Howard Browne' and for the right reasons. I don't care how much good you say he has done, its quite evident that he is teaching heretical and false doctrines. That is not to say that everyone that is associated or met him is false, but surely by the grounds of Scripture and what a Christian is, he falls short in his doctrine.

"Revival will come when we get back in the Word. Many are crying peace, peace, and revival has come! but its not anywhere near our personal experience."

This false revival being talked about is not necessarily talking about brownsville but the laughing revival that is spreading around the world. Who ever heard of such a eroneous thing, God help us if there was a Tozer, Ravenhill, Sparks, etc. alive! for lack of better words: [b]they would freak!![/b]

Hank says early on in the message: 'not many people want to speak out on this subject..' and I agree with that and that's the main reason why I put it up there. David Wikerson speaks against the prosperity movement in [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2]Another Gospel[/url], and there are some others that are speaking out against this obvious falsity in the name of Christ. Carter Colon said this: "at least you don't need a gift of discernment to see what is false in the Church." It's so obvious these days!

Quote:
I simply am concerned.


Don't take every single word of what he says are right or infallible. But the main premise he is getting at is worth listening to.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/3/8 22:42Profile
FireinmyBones1
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Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

My dear brother,
I do thank you for your awesome spirit in this matter. I like you have a strong desire for truth. I too am extremely turned off by alot of what parades as pentecost. I guess I have been bombarded so often by those who automatically assume I am in agreement with these ministries because of my connection to Brownsville, that I tend to get, agressive. :) Hows that for a run-on sentence.
But my brother I totally understand your heart and am in agreement with it. Thank you for taking a stand for truth and the purity of true revival. I appreciate you and your ministry through this site. Through the power of the Spirit, please, KEEP IT UP! Blessings on you and your house in Jesus' name!
Burning,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/3/8 23:04Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

I was surprised to see this teaching given such a place of prominence as well.

I would highly recommend to anyone truly seeking truth in this area to read Michael Brown's book "Let No One Deceive You." It really helped balance me out.

One false connection I see already emerging in this thread is connecting Toronto to the vague term "prosperity movement." I would assume (though this may be a false assumption) this is due to the connection of Randy Clark to Rodney Howard Browne. Though, like most mistakes in understanding these things, making this larger connection of the movements is a wrong one it seems. If this is not the reason for the connection, please elaborate.

In fact, I can say that it is totally misleading to view Randy Clark (and by association Toronto) in connection to the "word of faith camp" (which i guess some would equate with the "prosperity movement"). Just last month Randy was up in my old city of Santa Barbara and I got to spend a few days around him. He makes it very clear that he has a hard time with some of thier doctrines (though he admits that in some areas they have a point). After all, I think he was a Baptist pastor for like 20 years! I also found it very interesting during this last visit with Randy, to find out that he loves Church history. He gave, by far, the most powerful teaching I have ever heard on it. He spoke of how we tend to "sanitize" our history which has led to many misunderstandings.

Just because Randy acknowledges receiveing a powerful impartation from Browne doesn't mean he agrees with all of his teachings. It's arguments built on false assumptions like this that lead to a complete misunderstanding of the subject. It's kind of like connecting Ravenhill to all that went on at Azusa Street just because he recommended reading Frank Bartleman's account of it. Or if you wanted to stretch it even farther you could connect Ravenhill to the so-called "prosperity movement" because he spoke highly of Reinhard Bonnke's ministry, referring to it as like the book of Acts. Or connecting this site to William Branham's teachigs because there is a message of his on here. Of course those of us who truly understand it's purpose here know that this site does not advocate Branham's teachings, but to the casual (and hasty/lazy) researcher, this conncetion could be made (yes, I am stretching this to make a point). These types of false assumptions are so easy to make but can be hard to see.

Greg wrote:
"David Wikerson speaks against the prosperity movement in Another Gospel, and there are some others that are speaking out against this obvious falsity in the name of Christ. Carter Colon said this: "at least you don't need a gift of discernment to see what is false in the Church." It's so obvious these days!"

I guess it's not so obvious as Conlon's quotation espouses (if we connect it to this thread), though wouldn't it be convenient to take such a stance. It requires so little patience and love.

 2004/3/8 23:56Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hello Brethren,

I think it is safe to say that whenever God has sent revival it was only a matter of time before the enemy did one of two things:

A) Sent flakes and false prophets to ruin it.

B) Provoked the leadership to stomp out the wildfire until they stomped out ALL the fire (including the fire of God).

It is an old strategy that has always worked.

This is the great balancing act in Revival. However, if the revival does not take to the streets in terms of evangelism and instead becomes an experience based "go get a blessing" movement there is a tendency to open the door to all sorts of madness.

Revival is for the purpose of getting us back to a place where Christ is our first love and we love our neighbor as ourselves. What greater SIGN and WONDER would there be than a sign such as this? Would not the people consider that "these men had been with Jesus"? When we begin to remember the fatherless and widows in their affliction and open the bowels of our compassion as evidence of the love of God.

I'm as Classical Pentecostal as they come, and frankly I have watched certain false prophets hide behind the "touch not my anointed" passage all my patience will allow. They have touched the Lord (the anointed one) with their madness and when they devour widows houses and teach that GAIN is Godliness I must "withdraw myself" and also my bidding of "God speed."

As the "balloon" of revival expands it must move beyond "experience" to evangelism on a PERSONAL and CORPORATE level. God does not anoint people for a goosebump or to shout off that zeal and power; HE gives it for SERVICE. It is there to reprove you and those around you of sin as the Spirit uses you to minister to those within your realm of influence.

Look at the passage "having a form of Godliness, denying the power thereof" (II Timothy 3:1-5). I submit in love that this passage speaks to a generation that wants POWER without Godliness. And they are inseperable. When you have sin in your life and you try to manifest the gifts you are opening the door to the devil!

Beloved, I actually once tried to pray Hank out of existence! I was sincere when I prayed and ignorantly thought I was doing God a service. i was tired of what he was saying about Benny Hinn as I had followed him to 5 cities and crusades and read his books. I am hoping there will be a change in direction as I deeply believe in my heart Benny truly loves the Lord. Obviously God knew better than I. He knows what he is doing.

I have no problem with Greg posting the message personally; though ten years ago I would have tripped out. Friends, I'm tired of all the counterfeits now that I have seen a real move of God. Baptize 33 people in 3 weeks and watch 1/2 to 3/4 of a congregation stand in repentance-- while the youth openly confess their secret sins in strong crying and tears. I'm sorry friends, when a real move of God hits there won't be a lot of laughing... but there will be a lot of spent Kleenex's.

God Bless and much brotherly love,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/9 10:20Profile
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 Re:

This all reminds me of a couple of messages that I found helpful in this regards:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1287]Purpose, Principles, and The Person: A Personal Testimony[/url]
Deveren Fromke

In particular he deals with what to do when both sides are correct as it appears to be the case here. Not implying compromise, seems that everyone is saying the same thing at the core of it.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3324]Holiness or "Blessing"[/url]
Art Katz

One of the better treatments of this issue I have heard, fair, balanced and also not compromised.

I don't think there would be any real disputing what Jeff shared despite the baggage and extra-curricular things that we all have heard about.
Really appreciate Jeff's honesty here, to hear it from someone directly involved and with the candor to not soft peddle the shortcomings is refreshing.

More and more there is a balance that seems to be out of whack and how do we gain this without compromising the truth? Without it turning into some kind of sloppy ecumenical-ism?
Certainly the adversary at work twisting our already degenerate natures against ourselves.

If this is all a bit to diplomatic, I am asking more questions than making some kind of statement.
Greg said:

Quote:
It's always easy to take a scape-goat and say I don't agree with either side so therefore I am right!...I don't claim to know that much about this situation and all the complex doctrines and experiences, history behind it all. But I can say with a clear conscience that there is much Christian practice that is a mockery to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. And there are some things being said against these teachers that promote this false gospel, but in my mind I don't see it adequate. There is a small minority of Men of God willing to proclaim truth in a day when people want their ears tickled with new doctrines.


And though I would concur with the latter part
I actually think there is much to agree with both 'sides' it seems to be a false division...(See the Fromke message above)...now who would go and foster such a thing?

Have to wonder what pains some of the leaders that Jeff mentioned went through to eradicate the false from the true. What if we were in the same shoes? How would it effect us if in the process of eliminating and a lot of us tend to like to cannibalize each other as Christians (I know, that's another thread) that fear of "they will think that this is all that is going on here, all this falseness that we are trying to get rid of"

It doesn't lessen the severity of the issues that have been raised by someone like Hank and echoed by many of us. Can't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

So...
Let's just all sing 'Kumbya" and roast some marshmallow's. :-D
KIDDING!

We are having some spring like weather out here in California and that may have to do with this lightheartedness, so go easy on me...

P.S. Robert re: BH, been there, done that, got the t-shirt (actually a golf shirt with the little BH logo, it's being used for other purposes these days) Apparently we have been down the same path, drove 400 miles to have somebody put a palm print on my forehead, would have been put to better use if they would have used it to slap some sense into me!

Kumbya...
Think I have been invaded by the spirit of Clutch... Moo!


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/9 12:48Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
One false connection I see already emerging in this thread is connecting Toronto to the vague term "prosperity movement." I would assume (though this may be a false assumption) this is due to the connection of Randy Clark to Rodney Howard Browne. Though, like most mistakes in understanding these things, making this larger connection of the movements is a wrong one it seems. If this is not the reason for the connection, please elaborate.


Todd,

It's awesome to see you back on the site and we are right where we left off :-P Speaking on the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, yes I do think its fair to associate the Prosperity movement, and also the Laughing revival movement with this church. From the teachings and sermons I have heard these things are paramount in many parts. There is some good that comes from this church movement and I am not saying we should condemn it all, but there is a need to judge what we hear and see and ensure we are in the best places to serve God. I think Robert said it well that when a movement just becomes a place where you can get a 'blessing' then all madness will ensue for its not glorifying to God. A Revival [b]will[/b] affect the community and [b]will[/b] result in street evangelism of some sorts.

I do believe we were talking about Randy Clark before a few months ago and from what I heard I wasn't to comfortable with giving a recommendation of this fellow. If Rodney Howard Browne gave me his annointing or impartion I would be worried about the validity of that source. I would rather recieve my imparation from God Himself by the Spirit of God then from a man.

Quote:
I have no problem with Greg posting the message personally; though ten years ago I would have tripped out. Friends, I'm tired of all the counterfeits now that I have seen a real move of God. Baptize 33 people in 3 weeks and watch 1/2 to 3/4 of a congregation stand in repentance-- while the youth openly confess their secret sins in strong crying and tears. I'm sorry friends, when a real move of God hits there won't be a lot of laughing... but there will be a lot of spent Kleenex's.


AMEN!! that is the revival that is from God, repentance and strong crying. Changed lives going from death to life, from darkness to light, unregenerate to regenerate is what is needed in our day! I am sorry if I didn't give a clear straigt forward answer to your questions and comments Todd, I would rather pursue the issue on a point by point basis, and I have suggested to brother Jeff already 3 points of clarification that are needed in this thread:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1168&forum=36&20]Elijah in a cave[/url]
I have many paticular problems with some of the movements (Brownsville Revival, Toronto Airport Fellowship, etc.):
-Slain in the Spirit
-Empasis on Recieving
-Cross of Christ not Paramount

[i]read the post for a fuller response[/i]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/3/9 14:19Profile
FireinmyBones1
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Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
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 Re:

Brothers and Sisters in Jesus,
I think that we need to take the advice of our dear brother and father in the faith, Johnathon Edwards. It was he who warned not to condemn nor condone(sp?) a movement based simply on physical manifestations and the like.
Number one, of course in my time at Brownsville I saw physical manifestations. I worked at the altars during altar time and saw many people "slain in the spirit" (although I dislike the term). I saw other bodily things taking place that look strange to the natural eye. I can say that some of what I saw was probably flesh. However, I know many of these people, and they loved Jesus far more than I do. For me to say that they were "faking" or under the influence of demons, or even "mass-hypnosis" as some have amusingly suggested would be unfruitful. I did not decide to move my wife and I to Pensacola because I wanted to receive an impartation, blessing, or shake and quake. Rather I saw the thousands running to the altars nightly, the thousands or lives changed, the passion of this great congregation for prayer and holiness, and I saw that the message of Jesus Christ and him crucified and resurrected was indeed paramount. As for a true touch of God leading to evangelism, you are exactly right. Every Saturday night, (that was the organized evening anyways but there were people out everynight) students from the school of ministry as well as from the church, filled the streets to reach for the lost. Unfortunately due to my work schedule I didn't get to attend any of these, but the testimonies and fruit I saw was mindblowing. I should dig up some of my old BRSM newsletters and share the testimonies sometime. I did, however, work with the Pensacola Salvation Army which was ran and staffed mostly by Brownsville members. I tell you this, that was probably the closest to General Boothes days as I've seen it. We hit the streets and went for souls. I remember one night as my friend and I approached a young man who was irrate and drinking. After talking with the man for a few minutes he broke and began to weep and gave his life to the Lord. This is one of many testimonies.
Also as for the cross being paramount, I've never been to a church in my life that preached the cross more frequently, or as vividly at Brownsville. Honestly, before going, I was probably guilty of neglecting the simple message of Christ and Him crucified. I had perhaps, matured (obvious sarcasm intended here :) ) above that simple message and gone "deeper". I was wrong. Thank God for professors and teachers who would preach the cross uncompromisingly. Many times in my "Acts" class it would turn into a study of the cross. MANY, MANY, MANY of these classes ended in students weeping before the Lord as they received a fresh revelation of the Lamb slain. I am so thankful for that.
There were some nights where there was perhaps more of an emphasis on us receiving a personal touch from God. (what some would call "receiving") However, those mostly came from guest speakers and those were not from Brownsville. Whenever our leaders spoke to us, however, the message was a STRONG repentance, self-sacrifice brother Ravenhill style message. I can remember many days of brokenness at the altar in the school chapel. I can remember hours passing as classes were cancelled and we pounded the altars with tears and weeping. I don't ever really recalling "holy-laughter", although I do not oppose this manifestation when in order. Occasionally, but once again not typically from Brownsville members. I tend to get slightly erked when Brownsville is termed as being part of the "laughing-revival". Once again to put it scholarly, "hooey." :) I've heard brother Steve Hill harshly tell those laughing to stop and the ushers to escort them out. Nothing was to hinder the preaching of the gospel. There were times when preaching did not occur and we simply hit the altar and pounded heaven for a deeper move of God. Brownsville was, and is about souls coming into the kingdom. If you could hear the testimonies that came from the high schools your jaw would drop. I can think of the story of a young woman named Jill. She began a campus club at her high school that exploded with the power of God. One particular day the spirit of repentance hit the place and scores of sinners were brought into the kingdom. I think of Brother Chip Woolwine who was fired from his position as superintendent because he was baptizing kids in a river near the school. He was also bussing in scores of kids who were bound in sin to the revival and they were being transformed. The school did not take to kindly to this. The fruit my friends, was/is mind-blowing.
Even the witches and satanists took notice. A friend of mine had a friend who worked security at the school of ministry. She worked nights and would hear the witches in the woods chanting curses at the campus and praying for the revival to end. They would also unashamedly come to the revival nightly. Many times they would end up weeping in repentance at the altars. They were not enticed to the altar by a promise of peace love and joy. Nor were they running to the altars to drop in their "Miracle Seed Offering" to receiving a touch from heaven. Rather their hearts were pierced by the preaching of the cross.
In my time there, the number one principal that was constantly pounded into my spirit was that I must become a man of prayer. Prayer was preeminent. Especially at the school of ministry. Entire days would be devoted to seeking heaven. Many times classes would be cancelled simply to seek God's face.
All I know is this simple fact, it was and is the Holy Spirit of God given to us freely through the shed blood of Jesus Christ who was and is at work at Brownsville.
I make no cover up for the occasional smell of flesh. Were it not so it would have been heaven. People are people and unfortunately we all have this one thing in common, we're fallen. So yes I did from time to time see people who with my natural eyes I would have thought were "in the flesh". Yet at the same time, I do not know them and cannot make a blanket statement.
Yet I can say for certain my time in Brownsville did not consist of meeting after meeting emphasizing receiving from men. Nor was it messages on health, wealth, and prosperity. Nor did it consist of a preacher trying to preach through shrieks of laughter. Rather the atmosphere was one of holiness. It was one saturated with prayer and tears. Friends, it was something words don't describe, it was a move of God. Blessings on you and your families today in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Burning,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/3/9 19:03Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Clarification, upon rereading my earlier statement:

Quote:
And though I would concur with the latter part I actually think there is much to agree with both 'sides' it seems to be a false division...(See the Fromke message above)...now who would go and foster such a thing?



I am not sure what I meant by that, had my thoughts mixed up, may not have been completely awake, should have just stopped at:

Quote:
And though I would concur with the latter part I actually think there is much to agree with both 'sides'



My apologies to Greg, brother no offense intended.

Thanks to Jeff for the continuing enlightening on all this, so good to hear the other side of the story.


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/9 21:59Profile





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