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 Re: Israel

Hi IRONMAN,

Thank you for your efforts here.

Quote:
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

You know, I'd never seen this..... That if the third temple is the Church - the temple made without hands - like the circumcision made without hands is the only one which counts with God now - then this abomination of desolation is going to happen in ..... [i]The Church!!!!????[/i]

Now, there are several reasons I'd accept this thought as valid.

The first is, there is even more scripture than I quoted, to support that the third temple is the true Church. Then there is Jesus' own prophecy that for the sake of the elect, the great tribulation would be shortened or [i]no flesh[/i] would be saved (Matt 24:22), and this includes great attempts to deceive the elect. This includes those of materialism and demonstrations of idolatry of other kinds, such as sexual immorality.

Lastly, I see many picture in the Old Testament of Jerusalem as an abused woman, and truly the Church is that... attacked in many different ways... tempted to sin ... physical violences perpetrated against her (members); because she worships God in purity, and refuses to sin willingly; she has a childlike faith in her Saviour. This makes her a prey... by which her enemies reveal their depravity all the more.

We have to remember that Daniel might not have had a concept of 'God's temple' being composed of many believers.... but this is certainly what we find in the New Testament.

It is very reasonable to the natural mind, of anyone to assume that a 'third temple', would be another building of stone, but it doesn't fit in with many other pictures in scripture, where there is a definite progression from the natural to the spiritual.

For instance, the first 'temple' was the tabernacle - a word which Peter uses to describe his own body in later life - and Paul was a 'tentmaker' - another way of alluding to church-building. Then Solomon built a temple. But it was doomed to become an obsolete 'picture', once the Old Covenant had been abolished. I think this is where there appears to be confusion. You talk about the Law of Moses, but Judaism today is much different from what was practised in Jesus' day. This is why the New Testament is full of Paul wresting the law away from believers.... Because the law has no place in the outward life of believers in Jesus Christ. It is now written in their hearts and minds by the Spirit.


If you can find any more Old Testament [i]scripture[/i] about a 'third temple', I'm interested to hear it.

 2007/3/1 16:35
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

hey sis D
sorry for the delay in responding.

Quote:
You know, I'd never seen this..... That if the third temple is the Church - the temple made without hands - like the circumcision made without hands is the only one which counts with God now - then this abomination of desolation is going to happen in ..... The Church!!!!????



if indeed this is the case, then the abomination would occur in the Church, correct. now the abomination is the placing of an idol (the statue of Zeus in the case of Antiochus Epiphanes) in the holy temple of God. now i'm sure in the Church we have some idols which we have placed before God which need knocking down. i do not think however this is the total fulfilment of this though. i say this because the Jews have been preparing to build a temple in anticipation of the messiah's return. now that to me says that there will be a physical temple which will be desecrated but at the same time i see the validity of what you shared as it pertains to the Church right now.

Quote:
Lastly, I see many picture in the Old Testament of Jerusalem as an abused woman, and truly the Church is that... attacked in many different ways... tempted to sin ... physical violences perpetrated against her (members); because she worships God in purity, and refuses to sin willingly; she has a childlike faith in her Saviour. This makes her a prey... by which her enemies reveal their depravity all the more.



indeed this is true. Jerusalem was abused because of her whoring. now the same can be said of the Church in many regards and just like Jerusalem, we too will need to be purged and purified.

Quote:
We have to remember that Daniel might not have had a concept of 'God's temple' being composed of many believers.... but this is certainly what we find in the New Testament.



well Daniel may not have had a concept of the temple being made up of believers, he was talking of a physical temple. it seems to me that there is a duality going on here concerning this 3rd temple. on the one hand, one can't ignore the idea of a physical temple with all the preparations being made for Messiah's return by the Jews. then again the desecration of the Church by the enemy is also something we can't ignore. so much has been exaulted over God...interesting twist is it not?

i've not gone over this site yet but this may be of value.

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

God bless


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/3/2 21:20Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

Dorcas,


Quote:
if the third temple is the Church - the temple made without hands - like the circumcision made without hands is the only one which counts with God now - then this abomination of desolation is going to happen in ..... The Church!!!!????




I wanted to mention here that Paul does not use the word for [i]Church[/i] in this passage, [i]ekklesia[/i].


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/3/2 23:17Profile









 Re: Israel

ChrisJD said

Quote:
I wanted to mention here that Paul does not use the word for Church in this passage, ekklesia.

Chris, thanks. When you say he didn't mention 'church' (ekklesia), which scripture did you have in mind?

 2007/3/3 16:39
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Dorcas,





Quote:
When you say he didn't mention 'church' (ekklesia), which scripture did you have in mind?





It was in regards to 2 Thessalonians 2:4. I mentioned it because I thought you were making refrence to it in the qoute.



Take care for now,

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/3/3 23:18Profile









 Re:

Ironman:

Quote:
the temple must be rebuilt and made functional again as it was in the days of old, only the Jews can do that.



I have only one passage of scripture and this will determine whether or not God is true or He is a liar.

Ezekiel 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?

Ezekiel 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.

Ezekiel 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 12:27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many days to come, and he prophesieth of the times that are far off.

Ezekiel 12:28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; There shall none of my words be prolonged any more, but the word which I have spoken shall be done, saith the Lord GOD.

These words were spoken by God to Ezekiel 2500 years ago.




 2007/3/4 20:56
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

compliments
wasn't what was said here in reference to what Ezekiel was talking about the sacking of Jerusalem? that people thought it wouldn't happen? :-?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/3/5 11:31Profile









 Re: Israel


Hi ChrisJD,

Although I quoted from IRONMAN's post, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, actually I had the end of Ephesians in mind, which I quoted in my post in colour (p2).

I've just looked at the word for 'temple' in an interlinear, and it appears to be the same word in both Eph 2 and 2 Thes 2:4:

New Testament Greek Definition:

3485 naos {nah-os'}
from a primary naio (to dwell); TDNT - 4:880,625; n m
AV - temple 45, a shrine 1; 46
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice
(or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy
of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell
of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is
distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages
joined together by and in Christ

I guess this is Strong's number (3485)



EDIT: Hi Compliments,

There is a lot of room for manoevre in 2500 years. I'm going to have to read that through in context before I can make a competent comment. (See here is where my lack of Old Testament knowledge is showing clearly!) But thank you. I am definitely interested in understanding more, especially as I do know some other things Ezekiel prophesied, which are amazing.

 2007/3/5 11:38
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Galatians 3:29, "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

If I am Abraham's offspring and the promise to Abraham was simply land, then don't I have a claim to that land?

I know the question is sort of absurd, but I feel it captures some confusion regarding the nation of Israel.

First, I wish to express my love for Israel.
May God bless the nation of Israel. They are the only true democracy in the Middle East and they are a strong ally of America.

Second, I wish to clear up an understanding of modern Israel in relation to Abraham.
God's promise was "to Abraham and his seed...He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Paul says "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" and "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Not all Jews are God's chosen people. Many Jews throughout the ages have died apart from Christ. This raises an important question: "Hath God cast away his people? The Jews are referred to as God's people because they are the ones "to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." Paul says, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."

There is an elect number of the Jews that come to Jesus and the rest are hardened unto this day. This is part of God's plan. Paul says, "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Paul later says, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

As a nation, Israel is blinded, in part, by God. This is not a complete spiritual blindness because many Jews are coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus, but it is a spiritual blindness upon the majority of the Jews. This blindness will happen until the fullness of the Gentiles come in--the full number of elect Gentiles are saved. Then God will remove the blindness on Israel and they will see their Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Now, notice what is not mentioned in these veres:
1) The current nation of Israel is the receipent of the promises of Abraham.
This promise was made to Abraham and his Seed. The Seed is Christ and all who are Christians are Abraham's offspring.

2) Anyone who curses the current nation of Israel will be cursed and anyone who blesses the current nation of Israel will be blessed.
Once again, this was spoken to Abraham and his Seed. This applies to Christians, not modern Jews.

3) A third temple will be rebuilt
The temple served a purpose and was destroyed because it was no longer needed. When Christ came He did away with the need for a temple and the ceremonial law. The New Testament is clear that the church is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16-17) and the believer's body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 6:19).

Note: What about 2 Thess 2?
"1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

The temple is the church and the man of sin exalts himself in the church. This is the apostasy and rebellion in the church, not a Jewish temple.






 2007/3/5 13:27Profile









 Re: Israel

Hi Jay,

It seems to me that

'And so all Israel shall be saved:'

is what causes confusion in the minds of those who do not see the point you make about Jews having come to the Messiah all down through the centuries since He came.

I link 'all Israel' with the 'one flock' of John 10 and 'one new man' of Ephesians 2.

This offers a consistency of interpretation of the consistency of thought shown in scripture, where often the first birth (first born) is made subservient to the second birth (second born).

The first birth represents the man of flesh; the second birth represents the spiritual man.

We see this in Jacob, the man of flesh who ran away, but, having kept his side of the bargain he offered God, God blesses him abundantly, and gives him a name which acknowledges the change in his EDIT: change of heart (not 'nature' as I originally wrote). EDIT end. There is a lot more in this picture, seeing he is Isaac's second son, through whom the promises of God are made good to all who will receive them - both Jew and Gentile - who become one in Christ.

Quote:
Galatians 3:29, "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

If I am Abraham's offspring and the promise to Abraham was simply land, then don't I have a claim to that land?

This is something I've been thinking about with reference to Zion being 'the joy of the whole earth'. That's as far as I've got..... I have a lot more research to do before posting an answer.

 2007/3/6 16:52





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