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Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178


Dear Afrikitty,

I wanted to share this post by "searchin" on prayer is school. This was an eye opener for me. Pray and bible readis is allowed is public school. It is our constitutional right. As some one else pointed out it shouldn't be used to foster rebellion against authority, just to be informed that our children can pray and read thier bibles and even have clubs. It is just that the school can't institue these things. Here is the post:

prayer in school
U.S. Supreme CourtENGEL v. VITALE, 370 U.S. 421 (1962)370 U.S. 421 ENGEL ET AL. v. VITALE ET AL.
No. 468.
Argued April 3, 1962.
Decided June 25, 1962.
Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, state officials may not compose an official state prayer and require that it be recited in the public schools of the State at the beginning of each school day - even if the prayer is denominationally neutral and pupils who wish to do so may remain silent or be excused from the room while the prayer is being recited. Pp. 422-436.

Meet Nathan: an average, middle school student who lives in a small mid-western town with his parents and two sisters.
One night, at the dinner table, his dad starts a discussion about the importance of prayer. During which, he tells Nathan that he needs to be thankful and pray for everything, even when you go through your day at school. That’s when Nathan said, “But dad, we can’t pray in school; everybody knows that.” And his sister agreed, “yeah dad, we’re not aloud to pray in school.”
Unfortunately there are many students across the country who are just like Nathan, they really believe that, somehow, it’s against the law to pray in school. It’s not suprising if you listen to what many voices, from both sides of the debate, are saying about prayer in school.
All too common phrases like, “They’ve taken prayer out of the public school.” Or, “God has been removed from the class room,” Have left many mis-informed and has led to a distorted view of the facts concerning prayer in the public school.

The Beginning

In 1962 In the Case Engel v. Vitale, the Supreme Court passed a law which states, “The act of leading students in prayer was ruled unconstitutional, even if the prayer was denominationally neutral and pupils who wish to do so may remain silent or be excused from the room while the prayer is being recited” (Supreme Court Case Engel v. Vitale, p 422-436 Miller, para. 4)
This case came about when a school district in New Hyde Park, New York directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day: ''Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country.''
The State of New York authorized a short, voluntary prayer for recitation at the start of each school day. The question that was presented in court was: Does the reading of a nondenominational prayer at the start of the school day violate the "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment? The answer the court reached was, Yes. The court decided that by providing the prayer, New York officially approved religion. Thus prayers led by, and sanctioned by, school officials was prohibited.
Fortunately, the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects both believers and nonbelievers by mandating government neutrality between belief and nonbelief. The government-- through its proxy, the educators and administrators who facilitate our schools, may not lead children in prayer or force them to pray a certain way. However, all children have the right to pray voluntarily before, during, or after school, and non-religious children do not have to pray at all.
During free time at school, whether it’s lunch, in between classes, or any other time of the day when you are able to talk to your friends you can also talk to God, and you can talk to your friends about God. Kids all over the country are taking advantage of opportunities to tell their classmates about God’s love. When your friends are talking about there newest CD, I-pod, or the coolest web-site they’ve seen, you can use that time to tell them the good news of Jesus.
Not only will the school allow you to pray during these times but, in case you’re wondering, you can read your Bible in school as well. In fact you’ll find a copy of the Bible in just about every school and public Library across the nation.
No one in America has outlawed prayer or the Bible…not even in the public school.
Personal prayer never has and never could be outlawed in public schools the first amendment to the Constitution gives us the right to religious freedom in this country. Students can pray and read the Bible. The law is clear on this point, and we are unable to point to any credible authority on either side of the issue that thinks otherwise.
Religious activity in the public schools has been growing in recent years. In the last several decades many religious groups have placed increased interest in student evangelism, and have established thousands of prayer and Bible study clubs in the public schools. Such activity is protected, as it should be, by the Equal Access Amendment, which guarantees students the right to form religious clubs to the same extent they have the right to participate in other extra-curricular activities They can’t make you pray, but they won’t keep you from praying either.
This case first came to court in 1962 and twenty-eight years later there was a group of teens who gathered for a retreat. During the retreat they felt burdened to pray for their fellow students. They gathered around the flagpoles of three separate schools to pray. The teens prayed for their friends, the school, and school leaders.
God birthed from this the idea that has come to be known as, “See You At the Pole.” On September 12, 1990, 45,000 teenagers gathered at the flagpole in four different states to pray before school started that morning. One-year later one million students from Boston to California gathered at 7:00 a.m. to pray prior to the start of school. This ministry has continued to grow over the years since. Now more than three million students from coast-to-coast and around the world gather to pray one day a year.
Students not only meet once a year at the flagpoles of their schools but there are more and more school football teams that will gather for student-led and student-initiated prayer at high school football games. This shows that there is a desire to be able to pray at school. The Congress may have removed the traditional time of prayer that was observed during the school day but students have found other ways to include prayer and God in their school day. Proving, like Daniel, if you want to pray…nothing can stand in your way.

Check out…
*Free Exercise Clause and the 14 amendment
*The Constitution
*Establishment Clause
*The Equal Access Amendment


 2007/2/16 12:10Profile

Joined: 2006/7/17
Posts: 140

 Re: To Those Born 1930-1979


bubbaguy wrote:

We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.

Hi Brother, I thought you were a vegetarian . . . j/k!
Thanks for this list, it was funny & interesting. . .

Jennifer Richardson

 2007/2/16 13:23Profile

Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 3

 Re: If you were born between 1930 and 1980....

Good afternoon to you bubba,
Thank you for your answer to my post. Blessing to you in abundance as this day goes on.

I lived in Windhoek, the capital of Namibia for 10 years from January, 1988 to December 1997. I was a radio announcer and a TV presenter in that country.

One day my husband and I cleaned out our cellar, which we used as a store room. We put all the stuff out on the sidewalk for the trashman to take away. It was a HUGE pile of us anyway..... My husband and I were flabbergasted to see some poor black people rummaging through that "trash". There was a bucket amongst this stuff, that had a huge hole in the bottom of it. In fact, I could say that almost the whole bottom was out of this bucket, but I saw a man take that bucket home with him. Within 24 hours, that whole heap of "trash" was taken away by the poor people and not even a piece of cardboard was left for the trashman to collect. Seeing that was a humbling experience and it taught me to thank God daily for what I do have. It also taught me not to complain about the modern conveniences I wished I had, but didn't. Here in America I actually own a dishwasher. I never had one back home and my children always did the dishes in the evening after dinner. Oh, they complained bitterly, so I made a deal with them - I said "Ok, you cook the dinner and I will do the dishes." That worked well for many years. ;-)

Malawi is a truly beautiful country. I am glad you got to see it. What did you think of the things that happened in Rwanda and Burundi? Did you see the movie "Hotel Rwanda"? I would also recommend that all people living in America read the book by an American journalist, Keith B Richburg called "Out of America". One of the last sentences in this book goes like this "Thank God my ancestor got out.".

Yes, the movie (actually there were two in the series), "The Gods Must Be Crazy" and the "Gods Must Be Crazy 2" will make for deep meditation to anybody who sees it. Just a Coke bottle...can you imagine a Coke bottle and what some people can do with it??? But this Coke bottle almost destroyed an entire community. I strongly recommend anybody to watch those movies, especially the first one. It was one of the first South African films that made it onto the American circuit and it was a huge hit in this country at the time.

If anybody would like to see this movie, please contact me and I will either send you a copy of it, or I will tell you where to get a copy. It is an extremely comical and hilariously funny movie. The first one was made in the late 1970's and the second one in the early 1980s, if my memory serves me correctly. You will be highly entertained and it will give you much food for thought. My husband loves it and all his friends have had to watch it. :-D

When I was living in Namibia, I was there during the time when the UN came over to oversee the transition period when Namibia became independant from Souh Africa in 1990.

I look forward to more stories from others who have been to my home continent. I was born and raised in Cape Town, South Africa and have lived in America now since August 2002.

Blessings to you all.
In Christ
Afrikitty :knockedout:

 2007/2/16 14:18Profile

Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 3


Greetings to you KLC,
Thank you for taking the time to write in response to my post. Blessings from our Saviour to you this lovely cold day. :-)

Yes, I am very aware of the case that caused the cessation of prayer in public schools in America. The problem with the whole saga is that it is full of loopholes and since the ACLU is committed to removing every single vestige of our Christian heritage from our country, I have to re-iterate that while the court case did not outright ban prayer from schools, the reality of it is that prayer and Bibles ARE NOT allowed to be seen in schools. My borther-in-law is a school teacher in Vancouver, Washington and we have had a couple of conversations about this. He has told me that the kids are not allowed to pray in public on school grounds and they can't have their Bibles in public view. In some instances it is so bad that some schools won't even allow the kids to have hidden Bibles on the school grounds. Go to the websites of the ADF and the ACLJ and you will see what it is these people are fighting in America's courts.

Now they are trying to have "in God We Trust" removed from our currency. The Soledad Cross in California has just been saved from being destroyed because there are those that don't want the Christian God to be any kind of feature in American Society. There is a man named Michael Newdow, an atheist, who is fighting in America's courts to stop the president from saying "So help me God" when he is sworn into his office at the inauguration ceremony. This man is NOT short of money and he can do this if we don't stop him.

Judge Ray Moore in Alabama lost his job because he had the 10 Commandments outside his courthouse. The offensive monument was forceably removed by the police from the courthouse premises under the auspices of another court, which said it was UNLAWFUL for the 10 Commandments to be on that courthouse's property. :-? So, if I decide to murder my husband....LOL...NOT!.....I would like to ask the American courts this question - On whose authority are you condemning me for that crime? In other words, who told you that I did wrong by murdering my husband and why are you going to convict me and probably condemn me too?

Most of the time, I hear people blame Presidint Bush for all the bad things going on in this country. So, because he was the one that sent troops to Iraq and so many soldiers are dying, the public blames him for all the bad things going on in this country. They focus on the war in such a big way that people don't see what the true trouble makers are doing in this country. The ACLU is one of the most evil influences in America today and THEY are responsible for much of the problems we have now, NOT the president.

I would like to tell people about Dr D James Kennedy's ministry in Florida called "Reclaiming America for Christ". I would encourage you to go to their website. I would also like to tell you about the Alliance Defense Fund (ADF)and the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ). These are two Christian organisations that are training lawyers and are fighting to reverse the terrible damage the ACLU has accomplished in this country. Go to their websites and have a look at the victories they are winning in America now. You will be surprised at the stupidity of some of the lawsuits they are dealing with. If these court cases weren't so important to keep some vestige of moral decency in America today, I would say that the court's time is being sorely wasted. But it is now necessary to defend common decency and courtesy in the great courts of America. It's sinful to say the least.

Here's a "nice" story for everyone. When I got my first job in America in 2003, it was with a big department store. I was a seasonal worker over the Christmas period. We were told that we were NOT ALLOWED to say "Merry Christmas" to the customers. We HAD to say "Happy Holidays". Last year, the ADF won a victory in court which now allows Christians to wish their customers "Merry Christmas". Now, it's OK to say Merry Christmas. By the way, I got fired for wishing customers "Merry Christmas". But it just came naturally to me, so it just came out and I don't know how to wish somebody Happy Holidays as I wasn't raised that way.

I strongly encourage all Christians to become card carrying members of the ACLU, the ACLJ and the ADF. Now you might ask me why do I urge you to become a card carrying member of the terrible ACLU. Well, they will send you letters every now and then of what it is they are trying to accomplish in this country and you need to know what they are up to. So become a member, just don't give them any money. Then the ADF and the ACLJ will also send you letters telling you about how they are fighting against the ACLU to stop their terrible agenda.

PLEASE people....go to these websites and get informed. You will be blown away by what you learn and it will drive you to your knees in order to intercede to God on behalf of your country. It is a terrible day to me when a 17 year old young man asks me if it is true that one of the 10 commandments says it's a sin to did my step-son.

I have grown to love America, but it was hard for me to learn to live here. Why do you drive on the "wrong" side of the road? :-? LOL

I have made some of the best friends in the world since I have been here and I will fight with you to keep our freedoms.

May God bless us and have mercy on America.
Lots of love.
In Christ.
Afrikitty :-D :-?

 2007/2/16 15:09Profile

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