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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
You are suggesting that once a person has believed in God, he is not capable of rebelling, and turning away from God. Yet there is even a mention of an unforgiveable sin in the new testament. Does that unforgiveable sin apply only to the already damned? If so, what is the purpose of even mentioning it? It must apply to believers.



Ben, the unpardonable sin cannot be made by Christians. This is absurd.

You maintain that it is possible for a Christian to fall away, I maintain that it is impossible. My question to you is, 'Do you really feel that you are capable of 'complete and utter rebellion'?

Quote:
Do you believe that for God to give man complete and total free will, and by free will, I mean the real definition of free will, perfect freedom, without restraint...etc, that He would somehow be out of control?



He would be out of control over the affairs of man. The Bible constantly teaches that God works according to the councel of his own will and he does not change his will according to what men do or don't do.

Quote:
One other thing I would like to see you address is the issue of Moses striking the rock twice and not entering into the promiseland because of it. We know that the promiseland was a typecast of heaven,



Was the promiseland a typecast of heaven or the Christian life? Are we going to fight enemies in heaven who are currently living there?

Quote:
and we know that the rock was a typecast of Christ. So why then was Moses not allowed to enter into the promiseland?



Numbers 20
"6And the glory of the LORD appeared to them, 7and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 8"Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle." 9And Moses took the staff from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

10Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?" 11And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. 12And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them." 13These are the waters of Meribah, where the people of Israel quarreled with the LORD, and through them he showed himself holy."

God kept Moses from going into the Promised land because Moses failed to properly uphold the holiness of God. This is not an example of someone losing their salvation. Do you doubt that Moses is in Heaven?

 2007/2/16 14:52Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Of course He is able, but are we willing?!



You are nullifying the promise of God and making it conditional upon man. God will keep true Christians from falling and will present them faultless. To make this passage say anything else is injustice.

I hear the same argument made concerning Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Some say this is true, but we can leave God and forsake him. According to this logic, God can leave us and forsake us even though the scripture clearly states that God will never do so.

 2007/2/16 14:55Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
One other thing I would like to see you address is the issue of Moses striking the rock twice and not entering into the promiseland because of it. We know that the promiseland was a typecast of heaven,



I hope not, because there were still battles fought in the Promised Land. Heaven is a place of rest is it not?

Canaan was a type of the Christian life, and if you look at the battles of God's people, yet the promises of victory through God is it not like our lives today?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/16 14:56Profile









 Re: run over by a semi!!!

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Goldminer,

Paul Washer tells the story of being late to a meeting because he was physically run over by a Semi. The people at the meeting did not believe him because they said, 'You cannot have a meeting like that with a Semi and not be radically changed.' His reply was, 'Same way with God.'

[b]"run over by a [i]semi..."[/i]

Excuse the spot of comic relief, but I can't resist As I come from the UK, that sounds incredibly funny. To us a semi is a kind of house (semi-detached). Being chased by a runaway house...? :lol:

I assume that to you its a truck, or some other big vehicle?

On a serious note, I wonder if the Lord is amused, but a little saddened, at our earnest arguments for our understanding of Truth. The whole Truth is far greater than any of our reasonings.

Just a thought, does where we are on the Predestination/Free Will debate reflect more of our own personality and experiences, rather than what Scripture says? Some of the very same passages are being used to "prove" one or other side of the argument.

When I first came to the Lord I was so insecure in my salvation that the Lord must have arranged for me to be under strong Calvinist teaching almost from the beginning. I was really scared of going to hell after all if I didn't constantly strive to please God.

As I gradually became more secure, and learned to trust Him to keep me from falling, (Jude 24 has been quoted), my position on this began to moderate. I realised that there were some in the Bible who really did seem to have turned their back on the Lord after having known Him.

Eventually I decided that both predestination AND free will are true.

A bit of a cop-out maybe, ;-) but who can fully understand the whole of Truth? The Lord often gives us understanding as and when required - for practical purposes, not theoretical. Our business is to follow Him and obey the light He shows us for the next step (Ps 119:105)

Jeannette.
[/b]

 2007/2/16 15:02









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
Of course He is able, but are we willing?!



You are nullifying the promise of God and making it conditional upon man. God will keep true Christians from falling and will present them faultless. To make this passage say anything else is injustice.

I hear the same argument made concerning Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Some say this is true, but we can leave God and forsake him. According to this logic, God can leave us and forsake us even though the scripture clearly states that God will never do so.

[b]It means that I can [i]trust[/i] the Lord to keep me from falling, that i don't have to struggle and strive to come up to His standards, because Jesus is my righteousness. It means that, if He exposes a seed of rebellion in my heart, I can trust Him to deal with it. I can't deal with it myself, but HE can.

So it ceases to be a theological question and becomes a very practical one. Not even a question any more, because HE is the answer

Blessings in Him

Jeannette[/b]

 2007/2/16 15:29
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
It means that I can trust the Lord to keep me from falling, that i don't have to struggle and strive to come up to His standards, because Jesus is my righteousness. It means that, if He exposes a seed of rebellion in my heart, I can trust Him to deal with it. I can't deal with it myself, but HE can.



I agree. If a seed of rebellion comes into my heart I can be assured that as a child of God that He will discipline me and bring me back into fellowship.

 2007/2/16 15:34Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Littlegift,

I keep forgetting that there are people on here from other countries. I just realized that you would call it a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorry]Lorry.[/url]

 2007/2/16 15:36Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:What does it mean

Lets add these scriptures to the mix.Leviticus 4:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Leviticus 4:13
And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

Leviticus 4:22
When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

Leviticus 5:15
If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the Lord; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the Lord a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

Leviticus 5:18
And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Numbers 15:24-29
Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. [25] And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance: [26] And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
[27] And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. [28] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. [29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


Notice how the word ignorance is emphasized. A question for all:
What if its not done through ignorance?

pastorfrin

 2007/2/16 15:40Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Ben, the unpardonable sin cannot be made by Christians. This is absurd.



Tell me why it is mentioned, and who it is mentioned to?

Quote:
You maintain that it is possible for a Christian to fall away, I maintain that it is impossible. My question to you is, 'Do you really feel that you are capable of 'complete and utter rebellion'?



Until you answer my questions about how you know that you are saved, then I cannot answer this question.

Quote:
He would be out of control over the affairs of man. The Bible constantly teaches that God works according to the councel of his own will and he does not change his will according to what men do or don't do.



So you are telling me that when God told Moses to stand aside so that He could kill the people of Israel and create a new people, that he did not change, or at the least postpone his will because of what Moses did?

Or when God tells Ahab through Elijah that he is going to pour out judgement upon him, and Ahab repents, so God holds back his judgment a generation. Where is the unchanging God? He says one thing, and then does another?

Quote:
Was the promiseland a typecast of heaven or the Christian life? Are we going to fight enemies in heaven who are currently living there?



Have you read the book of Hebrews? It gives the interpretation of all these things about Moses that I have mentioned. The writer of Hebrews is meticulous in his interpretations of these matters. Check the book and see if it does not say what I have already said.

Your quoting of those scriptures only further proves my point, Moses and the rock is the interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6.

"put Christ to an open shame"
"failed to properly uphold the holiness of God"

No, I do not doubt the salvation of Moses, why?
Because I know that the gospel of Christ was preached unto them, even as unto us. As the writers of Hebrews says, they looked forward to the promise of His coming, so that they could hear the gospel. Moses went into the heavens and saw the sacrificed lamb.

But what was done, was done as an example, so that we might hav understanding of these things.

God wanted to make a point that He is holy, and He will not be shamed by Moses, or by any other man.

Here's an interesting point:
[b]God allowed Moses to strike the rock.[/b]

He told Moses what to do, gave him complete liberty to do whatever he wanted, and Moses disobeyed God. What was the punishment for Moses disobedience? He could not enter in to the promise, the covenant with Abraham, the promised land.

Their salvation did not come until later, when Christ came and preached the gospel to them. What happened in their lives were for examples to us.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/16 15:58Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Notice how the word ignorance is emphasized. A question for all:



These men do not believe that anything you do ever matters once you are justified, because God will take care of it.

But I have more questions:

Why does God allow any sin to manifest itself in people who are justified. If He is able to keep you from falling, then why doesn't He?

How can God contol one aspect of your life, and not be controlling every aspect of your life?

Either men have free will, or they do not. If even one area is controlled, then every area is controlled. This logic cannot be refuted.

And in reference to roaringlamb:

I totally agree that a man cannot be saved unless God reveals his sinfulness to him.

And I believe that God's Spirit must convict him of sin.

But it is the man who has faith, not God.

God has given every man a measure of faith.

It is our choice to use it or not.

What measure of faith did God give to the eternally predistined to hell?

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

It is the preaching of the word, with the mixing of the faith in a man, that produces repentance and belief.

God does not save men against their wills, and His grace is completely resistable, elsewise there would be none in hell except the devil and his angels.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/16 16:11Profile





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