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divdasunder
Member



Joined: 2006/12/10
Posts: 76
Ohio

 Re:

I read a liitle on this thread and wanted to see what was thought of this,

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

If his name is blotted out, it had to be there in the first place right? You can't blot out something that wasn't there?


_________________
Adam Moore

 2007/3/5 6:11Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

UniqueWebRev, you said and I quote:

Quote:
Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ. In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.

God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.



I replied as follows:
Quote:
UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’
Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander. I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.



You replied as follows:

Quote:
My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God, but what you said was your means of salvation, and consequent always perfect state of salvation, for if once saved, then always saved. Or isn't that what you meant?



and

Quote:
My apologies for not knowing you, but only what you said, for it is what I based what I said upon. If you didn't mean what you said, why did you say it? But, yes, at your request, I will pray over what you consider my slander of you, and be very cautious to specify in future that I am speaking to the words spoken, not the person, for I truly have no wish to offend, merely dialogue with zest.



I replied as follows:
Quote:
UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.



To which you replied:
Quote:
In responding in a conversation, how can I not use the word 'you' when referring to what you have said?

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person? Must I speak in the third person when I am speaking to what you, Jaysaved, have said? If so, it will make responding difficult indeed.



Forgive me for being confused here. You responded to one of my posts with phrases such as:
Quote:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough


Quote:
You don't speak of love you speak of entitlement


Quote:
He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value.



I called to your attention that such statements amount to slander because you do not know my relationship with God.

You then told me that your 'diatribe' was not about me or my relationship with God but was nothing more than an attack upon my beliefs of salvation, but then said that what you wrote was attributed to me.
Quote:
Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person?



Please brother clear up this confusion about your statements. God Bless.

 2007/3/5 9:10Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

JaySaved wrote:

Quote:
It is God who changes our desires and understanding of who He really is. He does not change our Will but instead changes what it is bound to. This is why people 'choose' Christ. They now desire Christ and have a greater understanding of who he is. They see him differently and gladly run to Him. It is God doing this, through Grace.

It is faulty logic to assume that since God chooses, free will cannot exist.




UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
If God must change our desires for us to choose Jesus, then where is our free-will?

I did not have a 'desire' to ask Christ into my life. I chose Jesus for my Lord and Savior, just in the same manner I would choose to jump off a cliff, (and frankly, it felt the same to me) because I had long believed that God was. I had long understood what God was offering me, and what I would have to give in return. You called it 'works' in another post on this thread.

KJV Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Lucifer and his demons believe in Jesus. They don't choose to serve Him.

Sorry, but if God does more than teach and persuade, cajol, and woo, it is not my free will choice at all, but His desire, His will, and I become nothing but a puppet.

Our relationship with Jesus is a love affair. God already owns us. He can do what He likes with us. But He cannot gain our willing trust and love by force, and He wants exactly that, and the works of obedience that prove it. He want's true intimacy with us, not mere acquiescence.



I would love for us to continue this discussion on another thread entitled [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=15236&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Man's Will[/url]

God Bless.

 2007/3/5 9:36Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Sovereign Grace vs Freewill

[color=3300FF]JaySaved, I will need to answer your quotes and explain my own in more detail, so I will do so in a diffeent color in order to distinguish this post from the previous ones.

I want to very careful to take enough time and words to explain myself in full, which I obviously did not in my original posts. I was not attempting to explain my statements, as I thought they were sufficiently clear on their own. Consquently, this post may be rather long, due to the two previous sets of posts.[/color]


JaySaved wrote:
UniqueWebRev, you said and I quote:

Quote:
Yours is a convenient belief for those that don't want to have to please God for salvation by choosing Christ.



[color=3300FF]I think that Predestination, or Sovereign Grace, is all too convenient for those that believe in it. Each such person is chosen by a benevolent God who saves you, without your consent, or belief. As a God who does not change, and is not a man to lie, He cannot un-save you, regardless of what you do.

You need do nothing to please Him, no trust or belief is required of you. You need do nothing at all, simply bask in your God given perfection, for having been saved, you have been justified, and are therefore perfect.[/color]


In fact, you are already so perfected that God chose you, and wouldn't let you go, no matter what you do.

[color=3300FF]Precisely my point. You are saved without your will, you will remain saved no matter what you do. You can commit every sin that exists, and still remain in perfect amity with God. He doesn't want a relationship with you, as He says He does with others. He want's brainwashed humans that will never disappoint Him, never hurt Him, because they have no ability to do so.

If you believe in Sovereign Grace, you believe in Jesus, of course. You did not need to decide whether to do so. 'Belief' was given you along with your salvation. You 'love' God as well. The love was implanted at the time of your salvation, along with your belief. But if so, then those who believe in Sovereign Grace are a pre-programmed holographs, with as much substance as a computer program on a screen.

I am not saying any of this of you, JaySaved, unless you believe in Predestination. If what I am saying about believers in Sovereign Grace is not true of you, and your relationship with God, then you cannot believe in Predestination,
because those that believe in Sovereign Grace have admitted to never having had a choice.
[/color]


I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.


[color=3300FF]Again, if there is no choice, there is no consciousness of sin to be saved from. Your conscience must be seared to live within this robotic religious belief system.

If you are conscious of a sin nature, then you cannot admit to Sovereign Grace, for if Sovereign Grace exists, and you are one of the 'chosen', you are permanently perfected, or if not perfected, unconscious of any outstanding sin that would seperate you from God. Remember, a believer in Sovereign Grace must be one of the elect, and exempt from the New Covenant.

For the New Covenant is a conditional agreement. Jesus dies for my sins as my Kinsman Redeemer. If I believe upon His name, His holy origin, His sacrificial death, Divine resurrection; hear His knock upon my door, requesting admittance; if I, after due consideration, open the door, and invite Him in to sup with me, and I with Him, then He has become my Betrothed.

I speak with Him daily, and hear Him in return. I seek Him all hours of the day, and am distressed when I can not find Him. But He, as in the Song of Solomon, can always find me, awake, asleep, weeping because I have lost Him and cannot find Him.

I seek always to find some way to please Him. I study His life, I sing of Him, and His greatness.
The longer I know Him, the more I know of Him, and the more I love Him. If you, my brother, do the same, then you cannot believe in Predestination, with no free choice, and no real love.[/color]


God chose me too, But I chose Him in return. I am obsessed with Him as I ever was with my first love at 13. I love Him more and more each day, and try to show it.

[color=3300FF]Nothing has changed here, though I could write reams about my love for Him, and my pitious inability to refrain from my humanity.
[/color]

You don't speak of love. You speak of entitlement. How incredibly sad for God to have chosen you, for He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value. After all, you are one of the chosen ones.

[color=3300FF]If you believe in Sovereign Grace, then the above is true of you. If it is not true, then you do not believe in Sovereign Grace.
[/color]

I replied as follows:
UniqueWebRev I encourage you to pray over these words you have written. You are making an assumption about another Christian. You know very little about my relationship with Christ. You are accusing me of ‘token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, and worship without value.’

[color=3300FF]Quite true, and it remains a fact if you are among those that believe they have been Predestined to be among the 'Saved' believers of Jesus Christ. For if you are saved by Sovereign Grace, then no choice is needed, no love is needed, no forgiveness is needed, no praise is needed. You may feel these things, but if you were ordained by God to be saved, then so too were you ordained to love, and worship God's Son.[/color]

Pray over those words you spoke and may God forgive you of your slander.

[color=3300FF]Slander is a false report maliciously uttered and tending to injure the reputation of a person. 1971 The New Merriam-Webster Pocket Dictionary.

My dear JaySaved, I have not slandered you. There was no malice in my heart when I wrote those words that struck you as being defamatory. I know absolutely nothing of you, except that your nickname on this site is JaySaved, and you are from Tennessee.

How can I say anything about you that can damage your reputation? You speak from anonymity, and remain in it. Nor have I said anything false about you, that I know of. Only you know about you. If in terms, and in speaking in debate I did not explain as extensively as I have here, I still said nothing that could be taking as defamatory towards you.

You took a specific position in regards to God. I took another. And as I have explained here in depth, what I said is completely true if, and only if, you believe you are saved by Predestination. There is no slander, no libel, no defamation of any kind. If you are saved by Sovereign Grace, then what I have said is true, and if not, not. But in either case, since no malice was meant, slander cannot hold to this, or any previous discussion.[/color]


I love God and desire to honor him every day. God knows that and my conscience is clear.


[color=3300FF]I believe you, JaySaved. I merely do not believe in any faith that has no choice. Yes, I know what the scriptures say. But we are talking about a God who knows everything about everyone from before the beginning of the world. And He knows who would take part in the New Covenant before the world was formed, and Adam sinned.[/color]

[color=CC6600]KJV Romans 8:29-30 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/color]

[color=3300FF]This is just a fancy way of saying exactly what I said. God foreknew those He chose to be saved, and He made them to be like unto His son. But these people have had no choice, and I believe are to be pitied. I prefer my very faulty love for my Saviour because it is something I can give Him that He can get from no other.

He made me unique. I am without equal in the universe, however poor a thing that might be. But my love and devotion, my praise and faith, however faulty, is Glorified in my Saviour, for He loved me enough to die for me. Those Predestined need no kinsman redeemer. They are saved already.[/color]

You replied as follows:

My 'diatribe' was not about you or your relationship with God, but what you said was your means of salvation, and consequent always perfect state of salvation, for if once saved, then always saved. Or isn't that what you meant?

[color=3300FF]I meant every word of it, and have explained it in full above.[/color]

and

My apologies for not knowing you, but only what you said, for it is what I based what I said upon. If you didn't mean what you said, why did you say it?

[color=3300FF]Jaysaved, if you didn't mean it, why did you say it? My apologies stand, for I cannot know you, except by what you write, for it is the only thing I can know of you.[/color]

But, yes, at your request, I will pray over what you consider my slander of you, and be very cautious to specify in future that I am speaking to the words spoken, not the person, for I truly have no wish to offend, merely dialogue with zest.

[color=3300FF]I have prayed, and received only the knowledge that I must explain more fully, not expecting anyone to catch my meaning even though I have been taught, and recently reminded, to write as pithily as possible.[/color]

I replied as follows:
Quote:
UniqueWebRev, the reason I felt you were responding to me personally is because you kept using the word 'You'.



To which you replied:
In responding in a conversation, how can I not use the word 'you' when referring to what you have said?

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person? Must I speak in the third person when I am speaking to what you, Jaysaved, have said? If so, it will make responding difficult indeed.

[color=3300FF]This still stands. I speak of you as you, and you speak of me as you. I see no other way. If you do, please tell me how to do it.[/color]

Forgive me for being confused here. You responded to one of my posts with phrases such as:
I greatly fear your conscience is seared to your own imperfections, because you admit of none. God chose you. To you, that is enough.
You don't speak of love you speak of entitlement.
He evidently receives nothing but token obedience and affection, praise without meaning, worship without value.

[color=3300FF]Please re-read the above. I have already covered it in depth.[/color]

I called to your attention that such statements amount to slander because you do not know my relationship with God.

You then told me that your 'diatribe' was not about me or my relationship with God but was nothing more than an attack upon my beliefs of salvation, but then said that what you wrote was attributed to me.

[color=3300FF]The issue of slander is covered above. What I wrote originally, whether a diatribe or not,(your word, not mine) was not about you or your personal relationship with God, but what you said was your relationship with God. I responded to what you said. I cannot know your heart.[/color]

Is what is attributed to Jaysaved not said by that person?

[color=3300FF]I don't know whose quote this is, yours, or mine, but I will answer it anyway. What a person says in debate, and what he keeps privately to himself are two different things, at least generally speaking. If you give no information about yourself so that you can speak without caution as to what you say, so that you can speak freely about your relationship with God, we need to know that. If what you say is equivalent to hearing your prayers, then we need to be aware, and simply say, well said, as usual.

But then we cannot take you seriously in theological debate.[/color]

Please brother clear up this confusion about your statements. God Bless.

[color=3300FF]My dear Brother, I hope that this has answered all your questions about what I said in several posts on this subject. I cannot believe in Predestination for myself, for I am far too imperfect. I cannot and will not believe in Sovereign Grace where I have no choice, or the New Covenant is no covenant at all.

I will only give my love, little as it is. If it is implanted in me, then I am as the angels, perfect, devoted, but without human passion. Jesus was human as well as Divine. When I meet Him face to face, we will have similar glorified bodies, and similar experiences (in general). And we will love each other beause we wanted to.

I pray that this explains all that troubled and offended you in full.

With many blessings, [/color]


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/6 5:20Profile
blinx
Member



Joined: 2006/10/10
Posts: 57
Oeiras, Portugal

 Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

Brother, do you really want to be sure whether you can or can't lose salvation? Read everything (in the bible) that concerns salvation. I believe we can lose salvation. I wasn't sure before, so I investigated. So my advice is investigate for yourself:

[b][color=CC0000]THIS IS LIFE AND DEATH[/color][/b]
[b]THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT
SO INVESTIGATE![/b] I advise you to start by these sites below:


[i]Is OSAS an indispensible part of the gospel and what the Bible teaches, or is this the same lie that the old serpent, Satan, has used since he deceived Eve in the Garden when he assured her, “Ye shall not surely die”?"[/i]

(This is a quote from this site below)
[b]http://home.earthlink.net/~buhay3/id8.html[/b]

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/index.html (this site has Q & A about OSAS)


Godbless you, and may he open your eyes to the truth.

- João Tiago


_________________
João Tiago

 2007/3/6 7:34Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

UniqueWebRev wrote:

Quote:
I think that Predestination, or Sovereign Grace, is all too convenient for those that believe in it. Each such person is chosen by a benevolent God who saves you, without your consent, or belief.

You need do nothing to please Him, no trust or belief is required of you. You need do nothing at all, simply bask in your God given perfection, for having been saved, you have been justified, and are therefore perfect.



UniqueWebRev, I say this with all due respect, but you do not know much about Reformed Theology. I say that in respect knowing that words on a screen can appear more sinister then they are meant so please know brother that I love and respect you, but I must reiterate that you do not know much about Reformed Theology.

Your view of Reformed Theology is Hyper-Calvinism. This is an unbiblical view of the Sovereignty of God that removes responsibility from humans. I have noticed that many people who question Calvinism usually attack Hyper-Calvinism instead because it is an easier target. I myself attack Hyper-Calvinism because it is not biblical. I agree with you that any doctrine that affirms the following is unbiblical:
1) Requires no faith from man
2) Requires no obedience from man
3) Requires no trust from man
4) Requires nothing at all from man
5) States that the elect are perfect.

You my friend have set up a 'straw man' argument. Honestly, I don't believe you have taken into account the words I have spoken but you have simply attacked what you 'think' I believe.

Here is what I affirm and I pray that we will concentrate our discussion to these
points:
1) God is sovereign in salvation.
John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 17:1-3, "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Ephesians 1:11, "In [Christ] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

2) Man is held responsible for all his actions
John 6:28-29, Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.""
Luke 13:3, "...I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Acts 3:19-20, "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,"
Acts 17:29-31, Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

I affirm that God is sovereign in salvation, completely good, just and right, and that man is held responsible for his actions. I affirm all of this because it is stated in scripture.



 2007/3/6 9:56Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: JaySaved 3/6/07 6:56:55 RE: Predestination

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Romans 8:29-30
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also
called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Man’s Will is that by which man actively chooses. It is the innate ability through which, if unhindered, allows man to choose the most desirous option. It is my desire to prove that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation harmoniously with man’s Will, not in violation of man’s Will.

With regard to man’s Will, man has the freedom to choose, but is always in bondage to his desires. Thus man’s Will is free, yet bound.

I now want to prove that God does not violate man’s Will when He sovereignty chooses men to become Christians—for this is a common objection to Reformed Theology in that many
say it makes men to be nothing more than robots. When God calls a sinner to repentance, He does not violate that sinners Will. What God does is that He reveals truth to the sinner. It can be said that God “removes the spiritual blinders from the sinners eyes.” By God revealing himself to the sinner, the sinner sees God for who He truly is—Holy, sees himself who he truly is—sinful, and sees his
sinfulness for what it truly is—deserving of punishment. It is at this moment that the sinner responds to the Call of God. This response is done according to his Will and not is violation of his Will. Even though the sinner is choosing something that he would not have before, the Will is not violated because the man’s desires have changed—desires being that which the Will is bound. The
Will still chooses that which is most desirous, in this case it is the most desirous option to respond to God’s Call. Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses
and sins;”

I hope, in a spirit of love and respect, that I have proven that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation harmoniously with man’s Will,
not in violation of man’s Will.




[color=336699]JaySaved, I believe that what you have been taught by your denomination, whatever it is, is false, and derived from mistaken ideas of will, desire,foreknowledge, and Calvin's education by the Roman Catholic Church, which puts itself above the Bible.

Part of what you have spoken above sounds just like the teaching, and persuading that most people experience when listening to the Word, or studying it prior to coming to faith in Christ, and choosing to ask the Lord to be their
Savior and Redeemer.

But then you go back into some folderol about man being bound from being making their own choices because their desires are carnal,and override their will.

Please hear me out before you get your feather's ruffled, for I believe, that despite your statements of what you have been taught, you walk a far different, far more blessed walk than you speak of in your official beliefs. If you are teaching what you have been taught other than on this site, where we debate theology, I would be very worried about you. I'm worried about you anyway, because many quotes you
have given me have been quoted out of context.

But first Let us consider the definitions of the crucial words, Will, Desire, and Foreknowledge
[/color]


[color=336699]Topics: Will

Text: The Scriptures manifest greater interest in the will of God than in the will of man. The latter is not treated in analytic fashion any more than heart or other psychological terms. Yet the material warrants consideration. The notion of inclination is expressed in the OT by aba, nearly always in negative form, whereas the other leading words for will, rason and hapes, emphasize the element of good pleasure. In
the NT the chief verbs are thelo and boulomai, which mean to wish or to will according to the demands of the context. The noun thelema is used mainly of God.

Decision or plan is the force of the rarely used boule (Luke 24:51; Acts 5:38). To will in the sense of coming to a decision is sometimes expressed by krino (I Cor. 5:3). Among the more striking passages in which thelema is used of man are Eph. 2:3; where the word has the force of desire, and II Pet. 1:21, where it denotes an act of the will.

Of supreme import is Luke 22:42, the Gethsemane declaration of Jesus' submission to the will of the Father. Here is the pattern for the capitulation of the will of the believer to God. But this does not mean the adoption of an attitude of passivity such as may be suggested by the motto: "Let go ... let God." It means rather the determination that the individual shall actively cooperate with the revealed purpose of God for him. The power of the flesh is so great that even in the Christian the will to do the will of God may be largely immobilized (Rom. 7:15ff.). The aid of the Holy Spirit is
needed (Rom. 8:4). Continued dependence on the Spirit results in the strengthening of the will so that the meeting of the divine requirement becomes more constant.

The present trend in psychology is away from the notion of will as a faculty and toward the viewpoint that it is an expression of the total self or personality. Normal life includes the capacity for making decisions, and one is responsible for his choices. That choice which makes all others the more meaningful is commitment to Christ.

E. F. HARRISON


Topics: Desire

Text: A term used to describe the self in its longing to possess and enjoy some valued object or to fulfill some need or prized goal. God has created the human brain with specialized neural systems and pleasure/pain centers that govern desires, including the common drives such as hunger, thirst, rest, and sex. Desiring is so essential to human experience that some have described the self as being simply the aggregate of its desires. To lack basic desires, as illustrated by anorexia nervosa (a lack of the desire to eat) or inhibited sexual desire (ISD), is currently considered a mental illness that may be ruinous to the human personality.

The most common word for desire in the NT is epithymia, derived from thyo, meaning "to well up" or "boil." When the term is used in a morally negative sense, it is often translated as "lust" or "covetousness." In later Greek philosophy, epithymia signified the failure of human striving as it was either inferior to reason, directed toward evil objects, associated with pleasure, or it violated the golden mean of moderation. Some church fathers, most notably Augustine, were greatly influenced by this view. Augustine lashed out against the "disease of desire" as the "eager concupiscence which is always seeking pleasure," and even identified it with original sin.

In the NT the Greek view of associating desire with evil is tempered by Hebrew anthropology. The Hebrew term nepes represents the total human self, but it spotlights the self in its unique
longings for certain biological, psychic, social and spiritual goods (Prov. 27:7; Song of S. 1:7; Isa. 26:8-9). Moreover, these desires themselves are good when they emanate from righteous people (Prov. 10:24; 11:23). Those who delight in the Lord and are concerned, for instance, to satisfy the desires of the hungry, will themselves be granted their hearts' desires (Ps. 21:2; 37:4; Isa. 58:11). However, in the story of the fall, these same desires, when quickened by the serpent's lure, selfishly attracted Adam and Eve to the forbidden tree's delightful food and its anticipated divine wisdom (Gen. 3:6). Humans are
continually enticed to reject God, forget others, and selfishly indulge their desires (Deut. 31:20; Exod. 20:17; Ps. 112:10).

The NT writers continue the Hebrew tradition that human desires are normal dimensions of the created self (Matt. 13:17; Luke 16:21; Phil. 1:22-23). Jesus not only spoke favorably of human
longings, but he felt them himself (Luke 17:22; 22:15). However, both Jesus and Paul affirmed that desires are the primary medium of sin in the fallen world as the forces of Satan battle the will of God (Mark 4:19; John 8:44; Eph. 2:3; Titus 2:12). Paul develops this idea in the context of both Christology and eschatology. The Christian lives simultaneously in this age, which is characterized by the evil powers that
prey upon the weakness of the flesh, and in the juxtaposed age to come, represented by the reign of Christ (Rom. 8:12-27). The cosmic powers of this age, however, have invaded the self through its desires, whether they be sensual, moral, or religious desires, and have shaped them toward passionate but malicious self-seeking (Rom. 1:24ff.; Eph. 2:2-3; I Thess. 4:4-6). Thus, Paul rejected the notion that the desires nourish evil primarily because of their inferiority to reason, or their association with pleasure, or their evil objects, or their excessiveness. Rather, as a part of God's creation they are good, but they become evil when directed away from others to pure self-interest. These desires "of the flesh" are referred to as "deceitful" (Eph. 4:22), "evil" (Col. 3:5), "hurtful" (I Tim. 6:9), "worldly" (Titus 2:12), "youthful" (II Tim. 2:22), and "sinful" (Rom. 13:14).

In redemption Christ's spirit confronts the demonic powers in the arena of the desiring self (Rom. 7:7-8; Eph. 4:22-24; see also James 1:14-15; II Pet. 2:18; I John 2:15). The desires of the spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) battle those of the flesh (fornication, idolatry, envy, party intrigues, etc.) and the battle itself points to Christ's victory won by his death and resurrection (Gal. 5:16-25). Thus, through the grace of God in Christ, the Christian is freed from surrendering to the fallen selfish desires. God takes possession of the person by seizing the desiring self and reshaping those desires into love for the neighbor (Gal.5:13-15). Thus, every impulse to love, whether strong or weak, is a preamble to the unveiling of Christ's supreme rule in the world. D. J. MILLER

Bibliography. F. Buchsel, TDNT, III, 167-72; R. Gundry, "The Moral Frustration of Paul Before His Conversion: Sexual Lust in Romans 7:7-25," in Pauline Studies, ed. D. Hagner and M.
Harris; E. Kasemann, Perspectives on Paul. [/color]


[color=336699]Topics:Foreknow
Examining the word in the original text, the word foreknow is as follows:

Strong's Ref. # 4267

Romanized proginosko
Pronounced prog-in-oce'-ko

from GSN4253 and GSN1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:

KJV--foreknow (ordain), know (before).


Strong's Ref. # 7225 (ordain)

Romanized re'shiyth
Pronounced ray-sheeth'

from the same as HSN7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically, a firstfruit):


Topics: Foreknowledge

Text: Scripture uses the term "foreknow" for God's prescience or foresight concerning future events. Foreknowledge is thus an aspect of God's omniscience. All things, past, present, and future, external and internal, material, intellectual, and spiritual, are open to God. The Lord knows all things (1 Sam. 2:3) or everything (1 John 3:20). All creatures are open to his eyes (Heb. 4:13). Israel is not hid from him (Hos. 5:3). He knows every secret sin (Ps. 90:8). His knowledge is too wonderful for us, encompassing words and thoughts and our total being (Ps. 139). He knows all the ways of all his creatures; not a sparrow falls to the ground without him (Matt. 10:29). He notes our tossings (Ps. 56:8). He knows the way of the righteous (Ps. 1:6) and is not ignorant, uncaring, or impotent when the wicked afflict his people (Ps. 94:5ff.). His knowledge is complete, allowing for no confusion, obscurity, deficiency, or error. It is like the full light of day: God is light and in him is no darkness (1 John 1:5).

Omniscience naturally includes prescience. God does not just know what is happening or has already happened. He knows what is still to happen. This comes out most plainly in
Isa. 40ff. God boldly announces the fall of Babylon and the liberation of his people. He challenges all comers to show comparable knowledge: "Tell us what is to come hereafter" (41:23); "New things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them" (42:9). Nor is God's foreknowledge displayed only here; it underlies the element of foretelling in all prophecy. Micaiah tells Ahab his end (1 Kings 22:13-24). Elisha announces the relief of Samaria (II Kings 7). Jeremiah and Ezekiel declare the ineluctability of the fall of Jerusalem. Daniel offers visions of complex future events (11:2ff.). Details about the coming
Messiah include his Davidic descent (Isa. 11:1), his birth at Bethlehem (Mic. 5:2), his death with the wicked and burial among the rich (Isa. 53:9). It is true that full knowledge of past and present, too, belongs to God alone, but perfect knowledge of the future is a particular mark of deity which arrogant humanity, having no claim to such knowledge consistently denies or disparages, e.g., in its handling of the
predictive element in Scripture.

Foreknowledge stands in obvious relation to the divine eternity. God is the "high and lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isa. 57:15). "A thousand years in his sight are but as yesterday when it is past" (Ps. 90:4,cf. II Pet. 3:8). Past, present, and future are all present to God. He sees the end from the beginning and the beginning at the end. Being part of creation, time does not limit or condition God. As Lord of
time he does not live or act in abstraction from it. He eternally "comprehends" it, being before, with, and after it. Having total knowledge of all that has been and is. he also has total knowledge of all that will be.

God's foreknowledge stands related to his will and power. What he knows, he does not know merely as information. He is no mere spectator. What he foreknows he ordains. He wills it. In his challenge to the gods in Isa. 40ff. he can "declare the end from the beginning,... things not yet done," because "my counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose" (46:10). Nor does he know merely because he
wills. He knows because, willing, he has the power to do his will. "I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass" (46:11); "I work and who can hinder it?" (43:13).

By reason of the totality of will and power in God's prescience, the "pre" in the word has more than temporal meaning. With his prior knowledge of things God is the presupposition of their being. As Augustine says, we know things because they are, but things are because God knows them. All that exists does so first and eternally in God's knowledge. We must not press this to the point of saying that his foreknowledge is the cause of all things. God knows what is possible as well as actual, but did not cause it. He also knows the devil and sin, but plainly is not their cause. Furthermore, he knows the contingent
decisions of human wills but causes them only insofar as they have their origin in him. Prescience is the presupposition of all things as the prescience of the God of will and power.

In regard to the decisions of human wills, a collision seems to arise between divine foreknowledge and human freedom. God plainly foreknows and foreordains everything. Nothing outside him restricts or conditions his own freedom. He is always free to be himself and to will and act as such. This rules out pantheism, dualism, and every form of Pelagianism. Nevertheless, Scripture no less plainly teaches human responsibility in moral decision (cf. Acts 4:27-28; Eph. 1:11; Rom. 8:29-30 for divine sovereignty; Deut. 30:19; 1 Kings 18:21 for human responsibility). Divine foreknowledge must not be confused with determinism or fatalism, difficult though the reconciling of prescience and human choice might be.

The task of putting the two biblical truths together has led on the one hand to some valid and important distinctions. Thus God's necessary knowledge of himself is distinguished from his free knowledge of creatures. His speculative or contemplative knowledge is distinguished from his practical or active knowledge. His knowledge of possibility is distinguished from his knowledge of actuality. His approving
knowledge of good is distinguished from his disapproving knowledge of evil (cf. the "I never knew you" of Matt. 7:23). All things are not known to God in the same way.

Some more dubious differentiations have arisen on the other hand. Thus Molina postulated a "middle" knowledge between God's necessary and free knowledge, i.e., a knowledge of what is only
conditionally future, of what might have happened, or might happen, given certain contingencies, decisions, or circumstances (cf. 1 Sam. 23:11-12; Matt. 11:21-22). Arminius, with a special focus on predestination, separated God's foreknowledge from his foreordination. God foreordains the salvation of all those who, freed by his Spirit, trust in Christ, and he foreknows who will make this decision
and stick to it. On this view neither foreordination nor foreknowledge affects the individual decision but at the cost of breaking the chain of Rom. 8:29-30, robbing foreordination of its point, and separating the knowledge of God from his will and power.

Perhaps a more fruitful approach is from the recognition that, whether in providence or predestination, divine prescience means that God is in fact the presupposition of all things, including our wills, choices, and decisions. Nothing we do can inform or surprise him or impose conditions on him. He knows us omnipotently as our Creator and Lord. Yet he does not destroy us with this knowledge, but with
it originates and guarantees our authentic freedom. Only as sinners opposing God's will do we experience his foreknowledge as burden and bondage. True freedom, however, does not imply the possibility of defying God but of serving him. We are foreknown and foreordained in the real self-determination which sees no problem in its being self-determination in and under the divine prescience. G. W.
BROMILEY

Bibliography. K. Barth, Church Dogmatics II/1, 552ff., 558ff.; R. Bultmann, TDNT, I, 689ff., 515-16.[/color]


[color=336699]JaySaved, your vision of Desire as being overwhelming, and unable to be overcome by the human Will when it comes to choosing Christ, and requiring that the Will be bolstered by God to ensure salvation gives our common sense too little credit. Faith, which cometh by hearing the word of God, along with the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the Word of God, persuading us that Life and Death with Jesus is
better than Life and Death without Him, is sufficient to lead mankind to Jesus. We are not so overwhelmed by the lusts of the flesh that we cannot make a reasoned decision. Indeed, those Christians that answer an altar call, and stay saved, because their response was not an emotional one, but a reasoned decision of the will, would be highly entertained at the notion that they could not overcome their dastardly human nature long enough to make a decision for or against Christ.
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Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
I think that Predestination, or Sovereign Grace, is all too convenient for those that believe in it. Each such person is chosen by a benevolent God who saves you, without your consent, or belief.

You need do nothing to please Him, no trust or belief is required of you. You need do nothing at all, simply bask in your God given perfection, for having been saved, you have been justified, and are therefore perfect.



UniqueWebRev, I say this with all due respect, but you do not know much about Reformed Theology. I say that in respect knowing that words on a screen can appear more sinister then they are meant so please know brother that I love and respect you, but I must reiterate that you do not know much about Reformed Theology.

Your view of Reformed Theology is Hyper-Calvinism. This is an unbiblical view of the Sovereignty of God that removes responsibility from humans. I have noticed that many people who
question Calvinism usually attack Hyper-Calvinism instead because it is an easier target. I myself attack Hyper-Calvinism because it is not biblical. I agree with you that any doctrine that affirms the following
is unbiblical:

1) Requires no faith from man
2) Requires no obedience from man
3) Requires no trust from man
4) Requires nothing at all from man
5) States that the elect are perfect.

You, my friend, have set up a 'straw man' argument. Honestly, I don't believe you have taken into account the words I have spoken but you have simply attacked what you 'think' I believe.


[color=336699]JaySaved, I know nothing of Reformed Theology, or Hyper-Calvinism, and know no more about Calvinism or Arminianism than is discussed in general terms in Wikipedia. What I know of Calvinism is taught, very briefly, in the Calvinist mnemnomic, TULIP.

I was not brought up in any church, and only joined one long enough to be baptized, then got out for reasons I will not discuss here. I know a fair amount of the History of the Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church, of the Reformation movement begun by Luther in Germany, but have read far more of the Reformation movement in England, as I infinitely prefer books I can read to those I can't. And although of German heritage, I am an admitted anglophile.

I set up no straw man. I disputed directly from what you said in previous posts from my heart, and what knowledge I have. I have studied the Word for 37 years, the last 7 1/2 years in intensive, daily seeking of God's truth. But I have not studied from any denominational view. I call myself a Messianic Gentile, because if the Apostles didn't write it down well enough to be understood, then the whole New Testament is in
trouble.

Anything written after John died, and presumably the generation taught by the Apostles and Disciples is tainted by speculation and misinterpretation, as well as the Governmental use of Roman Catholism to incorporate pagan beliefs. In addition, what was written by Roman Catholic Scholars is highly suspect, and Calvin got his education from the Roman Catholic Church.

You would not believe me when I said I spoke to your words, not to your theology, or your relationship with God. You are judging what I am saying from a denominational viewpoint. I have no denomination. I follow nothing but what is said in the Bible, and even in the Bible, I tend to put Jesus' words above any of the Apostles explanation's of them. Never the less, I am very Paulinist in my views in regard to salvation through faith, and faith by the hearing of the Word of God. This is why, despite your continual quoting of Roman's, I cannot believe that what you quote means what you believe it does.

In fact, your new definitive statements above (1-5) actually contradicts what your official theology teaches. You are against Hyper-Calvinism, but I see no difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. To me, it's all TULIP.[/color]


[color=993300]KJV John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.[/color]

[color=336699]The only one thing Christ required of us for eternal salvation, is that we be saved through Him, with is by means of the New Covenant made in Him. That new Covenant is a bargain made in Jesus' blood. Jesus dies for our sins, and rises again to divinity. He asks us to believe on Him, and His resurrection to be saved.

The works that God does in Jesus, and will do in us, are works such as those done by Christ, and later by the Apostles and Disciples. They were not a separate work done, separate of Jesus, to choose a number of people that would be saved by God's grace, without Jesus Christ. Why else did the Lord go to so much trouble to establish the tradition of a Kinsman Redeemer, if God Himself would not need to make use of it. If God was going to break His own laws, and choose out some special ones for salvation, why did He not simply choose us all in this way?
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JaySaved said:
Here is what I affirm and I pray that we will concentrate our discussion to these points:

1) God is sovereign in salvation.
John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]KJV John 6:33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=336699]This entire passage is about Jesus being the spiritual food for all who would claim it. The last portion of it relates to the benifits of claiming the spiritual bread that is Jesus.[/color]

Jaysaved said:
John 17:1-3, "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]KJV John 17:1. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2. As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
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[color=336699]This is Jesus praying for the welfare of His disciples, and for those that would believe on Him through their testimony. Jesus asks that they be all one together, even as He is in God, and God is in Him.[/color]

JaySaved said
KJV Romans 8:29-30 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=336699]All of the above mentions not one instance of voluntary faith, obedience, trust, action, and does say that those called are perfected. God has done all. If so, what he has created is a toy.

Now, either the classic statement in Romans is true for all who come to Christ, and this is a description of what happens to each of us, not by force, by Predestination, but by foreknowlege, calling, persuading, until a decision is made, and we are indeed then justified and Glorified in Christ, or there are some robots running around.

Indeed, to me, Calvinism arose from the idea that God could not foreknow all that happened and was to happen, and say so, unless God were speaking of a unique bunch of the 'elect'. Calvin, after all, knew very little of the dimension of time, or other dimensions that are commonly taught in physics in college these day.

I don't think he had the ability to read those phrases, and understand how God sees time as a
whole when He wants to, and doesn't when He doesn't want to, and all the many ways God can look at and experience His creation, all at the same time.

I am quoting below the entire chapter of Romans 8, not a few lines taken out of context. All men would be in agreement on dividing the word of God if it were not for quotes, taken out of
context, and literal text interpreted symbolically, or symbolic text interpreted lieterally, because the reader is too afraid to say, 'I do not know. God will tell us when we need to know.' [/color]

[color=993300]KJV Romans 8:1-39. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.[/color]

[color=336699]To be carnally minded is death. This is not a once saved, always saved supporting text. Instead, Paul is saying that those who remain in a sinful life, will, like the Laodicean Church, be vomited out of Jesus' mouth. But according to the basics of Calvinism, once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. We are back to robots, then.[/color]

[color=993300] 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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[color=336699]Do the predestinated live in hope? How can they...they are already glorified. As 'to them who are the called according to his purpose.' If we who are the called, who love God, are called according to His purpose, not purposes, there is only one means to salvation, even as Christ Himself said.[/color]

[color=336699]God can foreknow everything. He can predestine anything He chooses. But then the death of Jesus was a sham, a legal loophole, for if God forknew any, He foreknew all, and if He foreknew all, He predestined all who would be, and God again has plenty of perfect, glorified, pre-programmed toys, with no choice to love or submit. There is only force or persuasion, and I sincerely doubt God want's forced love and trust.
Yes, God can arbitrarily change our desires, but once He has done so, they are no longer ours, but His.[/color]

JaySaved said:
Ephesians 1:11, "In [Christ] we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]KJV Ephesians 1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;[/color]

[color=336699]If the New Covenant is kept through Jesus' Blood, then no one can be Predestined, elected by Sovereign Grace, else Jesus' Blood need not have been spilt at all.

But if everyone is predestined through Jesus, then the Kinsman Redeemer doctrine is a legal fiction, and we are all robots, believing that we actually had a choice. Would God deceive us so? Or does not Predestination simply describe what God already knows is the end result, and the 'final destiny' of us all.[/color]

[color=993300] 8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.[/color]

[color=336699]Again is spoken the hope of HIS calling. If we did not need to hope, or if some did not need to hope, why would Christ have come, died, and risen again?

In addition, if all or any are Predestined unto salvation, why are not they all walking in perfect grace, for Paul in Romans said they were already glorified.[/color]


JaySaved said:
John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it
to you."

[color=336699]TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT[/color]

[color=993300]John 15:9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of
the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17. These things I command you, that ye love one another.[/color]

[color=336699]These words were commandments by Jesus to His disciples on how they were to behave.[/color]


JaySaved said:
2) Man is held responsible for all his actions

[color=336699]I do not disagree, and I will refrain from examining the texts involved, that have shown above that you routinely take the Word out of context, as did the Catholic Church, Calvin, and many others from then till now.

Now you know why I work first from the Bible, and second from the teaching of mankind. Only working with the Holy Spirit, do I then read the Commentaries, Sermons, and Theological Works to challenge my understanding of the Word.

Generally there are two main differences I note. One is that much Word is taken out of context to prove a point. The other is that the Literal is often Allegorized, and vice versa, making little sense of the Word even after a careful reading.[/color]

JaySaved Said:
I affirm that God is sovereign in salvation, completely good, just and right, and that man is held responsible for his actions. I affirm all of this because it is stated in scripture.


[color=336699]I agree with you here, JaySaved, except in the notion that God is Sovereign in salvation. Certainly God knows who is going to be saved, but again, what is the point of a forced love? God has the ability to be sovereign in salvation, for He is God, and can do this, but why would He want to? He would always know that we were His toys, not His children.

I believe you have been incorrectly taught, and have not always been a good Berean in researching the texts you have been given, but if you were brought up from childhood in this faith, you would not be likely to question it.

Indeed, I do not think you question these things enough. But I believe that you love the Lord, and regardless of the limited teaching of your church, you have been well taught by the Holy
Spirit, and hence walk lovingly in obedience.

Now, you have explained to me your position, and I have explained mine to you. I only ask that you actually consider what I have said.

I know that from a denominational view, you believe that only you can be right. From a complete Biblical view only, I can't help but think some of what you have said is mistaken. I ask you to consider that the Bible supercedes your dominational views, and consult the Holy Spirit over what I have said. Remember I do not speak from an opposing viewpoint, or competing denomination. I have looked at your words, and answered them, not your denomination.

I have enjoyed our debate, but I think we have covered everything we can in this forum.

My only desire is that you read what I have written with an open mind, and pray for enlightenment. Your final opinion is between Him and you, not you and me.

Many blessings to you,
Forrest[/color]






[color=336699]Post Script - No need to answer in depth, as we have covered everything possible in depth, I think, but please let me know that you read the above. If I have made you reconsider a single point, or no point at all, let me know which, for I put in a lot of time to write everything as clearly as possible, and document it. Again, many blessings.[/color]


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/8 4:25Profile









 Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?


Hi Ben,

You'll notice that roaringlamb also read out of your post the same meaning as I did. Perhaps if you re-read what you wrote, as if you had never seen it before and don't know what you think, you'll see what it conveys.

I appreciate your willingness to listen to others, and to reply conscientiously to questions and answers. Please don't feel you have to rush at these, and if ever I don't reply to a question you've left me, please send a PM with a URL to the page, as I do sometimes get snowed under, but am very willing to participate wherever there is something for the common good to be shared.

As a Brit I've not been subject to some of what I regard as strange teaching in the US, and am keen to communicate how important it is not to bring pre-conceived ideas to scripture.

A good way to deal with passages which seem incomprehensible, is simply to leave them till another time. Keep reading on and listen to what God is speaking, and eventually, more and more of those sections which didn't make much sense, will open up to being understood.

It is definitely a snare to accept another person's explanation (such as in commentaries) without looking closely at several translations and being open to seeing something [i]completely[/i] (apparently) different.... which is not to say that a commentator had nothing to say which was not worth reading.

But it is not always [i]spiritual[/i] what they say; but the word of God [i]is, [b]always[/b][/i] [u]spiritual[/u], even if it is also intensely practical, simply insisting on being obeyed without question.

 2007/3/8 6:53
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

UniqueWebRev, I value your words and I respect you as a dear brother in Christ. I believe the following statement of yours sums up our differences very succinctly:

Quote:
In fact, your new definitive statements above (1-5) actually contradicts what your official theology teaches. You are against Hyper-Calvinism, but I see no difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. To me, it's all TULIP.


You see no difference between Hyper-Calvinism and Calvinism. This is the most common problem for a Calvinist when presenting his beliefs from scripture.
Usually the non-Reformed person takes the following position whenever someone speaks about Election:
- God gave man Free Will
- God doesn’t want robots
- God wants unforced love
- You say God is responsible for sin
- You say God forces people into hell
- God is not fair in your position

What non-Reformed people don’t realize is that true Calvinism and non-Reformed have much in common and both stand in direct contrast to Hyper-Calvinism as follows:
- Both believe that man is held responsible for his actions.
- Both believe that God calls men to Himself through the gospel.
- Both believe that it is our responsibility to go into the world and preach the gospel.
- Both believe that God is good fair.
- Both believe that it is a Christian’s responsibility to seek after God
- Neither believe that man is perfected at justification, but still must be sanctified.

Where true Calvinism and non-Reformed depart is that the Calvinist accepts the verses that speak of God choosing men to be Saved without making them mean something else. UniqueWebrev, I respect you but I find it amusing that you told me that I was taking those verses on God’s sovereignty out of context.

JaySaved said:
Quote:
Here is what I affirm and I pray that we will concentrate our discussion to these points:

1) God is sovereign in salvation.
John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."



You wrote
Quote:
TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

KJV John 6:33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This entire passage is about Jesus being the spiritual food for all who would claim it. The last portion of it relates to the benifits of claiming the spiritual bread that is Jesus.



I agree that Jesus is referring to Himself as spiritual food. But look at verse 35, “he that cometh to me shall never hunger” and in verse 36 he says that they “have seen me, and believe not.” then in verse 37 he says “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me” The context is Jesus telling them that they do not believe because the Father has not enabled them to believe. Look at verse 39, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” The Father must enable the sinner to come to Christ, this is why Jesus can also so that “every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life”. Jesus knew that if someone did not believe it was because God had not enabled that person to believe, Jesus also knew that if someone did believe it is because the Father did enable the person to believe. This is the context of the verse and I stand by scripture.

Jaysaved said:
Quote:
John 17:1-3, "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."



You replied
Quote:
TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

This is Jesus praying for the welfare of His disciples, and for those that would believe on Him through their testimony. Jesus asks that they be all one together, even as He is in God, and God is in Him.



So we are to ignore the words, “to give eternal life to all whom you have given him? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that the Father has plainly given people to the Son? How am I taking this out of context. Yes, Jesus is speaking to the Disciples and for those who would believe through their testimony up until the present day…again how am I taking this out of context?

JaySaved said
Quote:
KJV Romans 8:29-30 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



You wrote
Quote:
TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

All of the above mentions not one instance of voluntary faith, obedience, trust, action, and does say that those called are perfected. God has done all. If so, what he has created is a toy.

Now, either the classic statement in Romans is true for all who come to Christ, and this is a description of what happens to each of us, not by force, by Predestination, but by foreknowlege, calling, persuading, until a decision is made, and we are indeed then justified and Glorified in Christ, or there are some robots running around.



Romans 8:29-30 is Paul describing salvation through God’s eyes and these verses are designed to give us hope that even though things get rough on this earth, God is fighting for us and keeping us in His power. Verse 31 wraps Paul’s main point up very well, “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Did you catch that? If God is for us, who can be against us? No one! Paul goes into more detail in verses 38 and 39, “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” How can Paul make those statement? Because those whom God foreknew He predestined…and those who He predestined He called and those who He called He justified and those whom He justified He glorified.

Now, I know your objection; you have made it clear. You object that the Christian on this earth is glorified already because this indicates perfection and Christians are not perfect. I agree that I am not glorified yet, that still remains in the future, but as I said before this is looking at salvation through God’s eyes, He is eternal and not bound to time. I will be glorified because it is inevitable. I am not glorified yet, but it is as if I am glorified because I will be glorified. I know what you are thinking, ‘That type of thinking is dangerous. A person could get proud and arrogant.’ I agree, but the key is to remember that we do not glorify ourselves. There is nothing we do to glorify ourselves before God. It is God alone who glorifies and it is by His grace that I stand. This is humbling to me. Jude 1:24 sums up what I am trying to say “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,” You see what is keeping me from falling…God alone. Not my works.

I know you didn’t want me to respond to all of this but I had to respond to what you wrote. I see your heart in your writing but I see that you do not understand my position and you seem to be arguing against something that I do not hold to.


 2007/3/8 9:42Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Our continuing lack of understanding of each other

I don't mind that you were amused by me, or my statements.

I was not unwilling to have you respond in depth, I just thought you might not want to.

You keep speaking of the 'Reformed Church'. Which one?

Since I do know absolutely nothing about it, tell me what the basics are, so I can see if we are more on the same page than I thought we were.

I am not unwilling to be wrong. I am only unwilling to have my 'yes' to God made to be of no effect.

I am aware that God must do a great deal to get us to that 'yes' point, and after we have said it, the Holy Spirit has to work with or on us very much to keep us growing in God.

How is this different from what your 'Reformed Church' states, if you do not believe in what I see as simple Calvinism?

Still trying to understand you,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/9 5:58Profile





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