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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

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BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I dare not try to put words into your mouth, but it appears from your response that you 'follow past the point of justification' because you are fearful of losing your salvation.

I will not lose my salvation and I continue to deny myself daily. Why? Because I love Christ and desire to please him.



I follow past the point of Justification because if I do not, then I am the same as the servant who took the money that the master gave him and then went out and buried it. He was called a wicked servant, and cast into outer darkness.

I am not fearful that I will lose my salvation because I daily place my hope and trust in Jesus Christ. But I do know that if I do not do the things that I am commanded to do, then I am not saved, or at the very least, I am a wicked servant.

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with examining yourself and this does not prove that salvation can be lost. I can mean it was never genuine to begin with though.



I agree that there is nothing wrong with examining yourself, but according to eternal security it is an irrelevant act, either you are in the faith and you know it, or you are out of the faith and don't care. So why doit?

But I must disagree on this next point of salvation, Paul says: "prove your own selves"

Why Would Paul tell them to examine themselves? If they were in the faith, it would be obvious to them and everyone around them, and to Paul as well. So then he commanded them to do a pointless thing. If they were out of the faith, then what were they doing felloshipping with the believers anyway?

You say that your salvation is not in jeopardy, yet how can you, prove that you are saved?

What is this way that shows how you are saved for sure?

How do you know that tomorrow you won't just walk away from God, and He will say he never knew you?

In essence, according to what you believe, even your eternal security is not secure. Because you yourself may be a false convert. You have no way of knowing until the day of your meeting God.

Quote:
Jesus says that he never knew those who proclaim to be his followers but are not. He does not say, 'I knew you but you fell away.' This goes back to God's foreknowledge of who will and who will not be saved.



One last thing, the word "knew", what is it's greek meaning?

It is intimacy, intimacy comes from relationship, not from Justification. Justification produces the necessary elements to produce a relationship.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/16 12:14Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I would like to ask a question here, how is man justified?
We know it is by faith in Christ alone.

There are no works of which I can bring into the courtroom of God and hold up as evidence to support His justification of me. Now unfortunately we live in a time where we have blurred the lines of Theological terminology and we assume "saved" to mean "justified".
Therefore we say salvation may be lost, when what we are referring to is the state of acceptance with God ie because of sin, God will now reject you.

Now please bear with me for a moment. If a man is justified through faith in Christ, what works did he do to achieve that state? Did he need to keep the Law? Of course we know that by the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified. so whence comes this justification, or declaration of our righteousness? From faith in the Justifier.

But now some may say, but if a man does not behave thus, he is not a Christian, or he is in danger of losing his salvation. Again though what grounds are we accepted by, what grounds are we justified by? Of course faith must have works, but are the works all the same for every person, so that one is not a Christian because they do not pray more than 5 minutes a day, or do not open air preach? No, the works may look different, thus we are to examine ourselves, but not to the point of dejection, but rather to make sure of our faith.

So now what is salvation? It can be many things. Deliverance from the power and penalty of sin is one. Delverance from circumstances is another. Yet salvation is a multi-faced thing. For example at the moment of new birth, we are saved from the penalty of sin or justified, then we are saved from the power of sin, or sanctified, and of course at the end of our Earthly pilgrimage we shall be saved from the prescence of sin, or glorified. So we are "saved", we are being "saved", and we shall be "saved".
In regard to this very thing Paul wrote this
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: [b]and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

So now let us ask the question, can we lose our [b]justification[/b] as this is the basis by which I am accepted by God in the Beloved.

I have struggled, and still do (alot), simply accepting that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law, and He is the Perfect One, yet God sees me "in Him". God loves me because of Christ. I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?

We must bask in the light of God's acceptance of us apart from our works, and in spite of our works, then it truly becomes "amazing grace"


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/16 13:26Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: Hebrews 6 & 10

I believe it means the same thing that Hebrews 10:26-29.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/2/16 13:47Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I agree that there is nothing wrong with examining yourself, but according to eternal security it is an irrelevant act, either you are in the faith and you know it, or you are out of the faith and don't care. So why doit?



The doctrine of Eternal Security or as I prefer it called 'Perseverance of the Saints' is that those who are called to salvation by God will remain in communion by God. It is not a matter of works that keeps a person in the state of salvation, it is a matter of the faithfulness of God.

Now, to the person who simply 'walks away' from God. How can one be born again (John 3) and then walk away? How can one be in Christ/a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and then walk away? How can one who has been saved...by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) simply walk away? How can one be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) and walk away?

The doctrine of eternal insecurity is a fallacy and stems from a misinterpretation of a few verses of scripture.

Quote:
One last thing, the word "knew", what is it's greek meaning? It is intimacy, intimacy comes from relationship, not from Justification. Justification produces the necessary elements to produce a relationship.



Are you saying that those who are justified are not brought into a relationship? Romans 8:29-30 tells us that every single person who is justified is also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Also, the knowledge Jesus was referring to in Matthew 7 is the knowledge of salvation. Romans 8:29 speaks of this as known before the world began. So, how is it possible that Jesus could know someone in salvation, but yet say that he never knew them in salvation? Is this not a contradiction?

 2007/2/16 13:52Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I fear many have fallen under the ideology that they must continue on in morals of their own making to somehow present this before God, but does that not put Christ and His work aside, and create a "justification" by works?



AMEN!

Quote:
I believe it means the same thing that Hebrews 10:26-29.



"26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?"

Anyone who deliberately sins is not a child of God.

1 John 2 says,
"3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 3 says,
"4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

The most relevant phrase to this discussion is "No one who makes a practice of deliberately sinning has either seen him or known him."

 2007/2/16 14:02Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The doctrine of Eternal Security or as I prefer it called 'Perseverance of the Saints' is that those who are called to salvation by God will remain in communion by God. It is not a matter of works that keeps a person in the state of salvation, it is a matter of the faithfulness of God.



So then you are in contol of nothing that you do?

Rebellion is an attitude of the heart, not an outward act. It will produce outward acts, but it in and of itself is an inward attitude of the heart.

You are suggesting that once a person has believed in God, he is not capable of rebelling, and turning away from God. Yet there is even a mention of an unforgiveable sin in the new testament. Does that unforgiveable sin apply only to the already damned? If so, what is the purpose of even mentioning it? It must apply to believers.

Quote:
Now, to the person who simply 'walks away' from God. How can one be born again (John 3) and then walk away? How can one be in Christ/a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) and then walk away? How can one who has been saved...by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5) simply walk away? How can one be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7) and walk away?



[b]By complete and utter rebellion.[/b]

How did satan, who lived in God's presence, chief among the angels, most beautiful of all God's creations, get up and walk away?

[b]By complete and utter rebellion.[/b]
God did not force satan to sin, God did not place rebellion in Satan's heart.

Do you believe that for God to give man complete and total free will, and by free will, I mean the real definition of free will, perfect freedom, without restraint...etc, that He would somehow be out of control?

One other thing I would like to see you address is the issue of Moses striking the rock twice and not entering into the promiseland because of it.

We know that the promiseland was a typecast of heaven, and we know that the rock was a typecast of Christ. So why then was Moses not allowed to enter into the promiseland?


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/16 14:15Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Let me clarify my stance on Justification:

Justification comes by grace through faith in Christ alone, and is not by any works of our own.

In Christ's sacrifice he paid for the sins of the whole world. Therefore Justification is offered to all men.

However the issue I am addressing is that if a man after the point of being justified by Christ chooses to rebell against God, he is perfectly able to choose damnation for himself, and God will not stop him.

The contrary opinion here is that first, no man would even try to be justified that would eventually rebel in that fashion.

And second, that anyone who is justified, is incapable of rebellion and turning away from God.

What I cannot understand is how anyone who believes this has any guarantee at all that they have been justified. Because there is no telling if they won't at some point prove themselves "to not be a Christian" by leaving the faith. Showing that they were never really saved.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/16 14:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Goldminer wrote:
I think the issue here is that many ask Jesus to come into their hearts, but never really go beyond that. Then there is a group of people who press in to recieve all He has for them. The fulness of the Holy Spirit and make Him Lord of their lives. Forsaking all the follow Him.

In this position it would take utter rebellion to walk away from it because of the intimate fellowship these saints had walked in. It would be like spitting on God's precious gift because they are doing it knowingly.

It is a different issue for those who have not pursued God to that depth. They just meander in and out and sin and repent, almost like a whim. These still are able to be restored after repentence because they have never really tasted the deep things of God. I would say it is even questionable if they were ever really saved, therefore salvation is still held out to them.

I see it as God giving you the most beautiful awesome treasure and you going in and partaking of it and enjoying His company and pleasure and then returning to your own vomit. You would have to do that with intent, therefore you are spitting on the beautiful gift of God.

[b]
Good points, Goldminer, thank you. The distinction between fully committed Christians and "in-and-out ones with only a shallow experience of God, was a new one to me. Mmmm, could well be so...

I suppose Satan did exactly that - rebelled with intent, with full knowledge of what he was doing. Being an angel and, from the moment of his own creation, knowing exactly Who God is, it would have to be deliberate rebellion. How it is possible to rebel against God, after knowing Him (and after partaking of a measure of His power and understanding) more fully than any of us who are limited by our physical bodies, I can't imagine. But he did. Or was he predestined to do so? ;-)

It makes sense to think that Satan had free will to rebel. And that after experiencing something of God far greater than the Heb 6 quote speaks of.

In that case so might we.

Jeannette
[/b]

 2007/2/16 14:41









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Ben, Greetings.

If your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is correct, then what do you say to Jude?

Jude 1:24-25
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."



[b]Of course He is able, but are [i]we[/i] willing?![/b]

 2007/2/16 14:43
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Bro Ben, in my eyes, a man will not seek to be justified unless the Holy Spirit has convicted him of his sin. Otherwise how would a man know he was a sinner, and in need of being justified before God? As Jesus said the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousnes, and judgement, and also testify of Christ.

No man can begin to search after justification without a work of God showing him his wickedness, and creating a knowledge of his lost state.

Of course there are false professors of faith, but that does not negate the power of God, much like when Paul asked the Romans, "what if some did not believe, does this make the word of God without effect? God forbid"
Peter sums it up wonderfully when he writes, "we are kept(guarded) by the power of God through faith unto salvation" 1 Peter 1:5

If someone who professed to be justified turned away from God(which I do not believe can happen) I would question even if they had an honest profession to begin with. But this would have to brought back to what Gospel they heard, and I believe this is why we have so many problems today. Rash decisions for Christ, apart from the knowledge of God and His holiness, or the work of the Cross, and the work of Christ.

Just my thoughts, not worth much


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/16 14:52Profile





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