SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : God Hates sinners

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )
PosterThread
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:



God has the right to love and the right to hate....and the bible is ful of examples where God has loved a group of people or hated another one....'flee from the wrath to come', why is that because God has in store wrath for the day of judgement for the wicket....but God doesnt delight in that, he wants to show mercy and forgiveness, the NT well says God is LOVE but His love wil not rich u untill you have believed his Son until then u will be under wrath...Hmmm what do u think of the God of Jonathan Edwards...or his famous sermon, sinners in the hands of an angry God...may be this guy was a little bit out of his mind...!!!???

Just sharing my thought.....


_________________
Redi

 2007/2/13 12:48Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I really think that Paul West's post is a tremendous read. If everyone follows his point- we should be OK on this subject.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/13 13:39Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Amen


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/13 13:48Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:


Quote:
There are certain things in the Holy Scriptures that can only be properly understood through deep travail and affliction. This is one of them.



i totally agree....you need a revelation from God before you preach on love or holy anger... u need to weep and sigh or anguish for the lost before u tell them about God's indignation....Jesus wept over Jerusalem....the same Jesus cleased the temple with a holy anger and still he was meek and low in heart.

I just hate the notion very popular today of a god who is all love but lucks many of this holy attributes he has in the old testament....the problem is many have made just an idol out of their imagination....no wonder we dont have anymore revival...we have a wrong idea of God....it's the "old time" God versus the new god...the "old" cross vrs the new one....

may God send us few modern time whitefields & wesleys to preach to us the old gosple


_________________
Redi

 2007/2/13 14:29Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

I think it is equally damaging to preach "God loves you" as it is to preach "God hates you" without explaining it. If you hold a high standard for preaching "God's hate" you also have to hold the same standard for preaching "God's love."

A false balance is an abomination to the Lord.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/2/13 14:42Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Yes, it is much like simply screaming, "you are going to hell" to people, when they have no idea why, no knowledge of God, and are not even concerned about there future judgement because noone has opened the Word of God to show them.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/13 15:04Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

[b]Romans 9
1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

[u]4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/u]

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

[u]11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/u]

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump [u]to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/u]

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, [u]I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.[/u]

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33[u]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.[/u][/b]


Ok, every time this passage is brought up, the debate goes immediately to predestination vs free will. Which I'm sure it may be bound to even now as I am writing this. However, I do not believe that that is what Paul is addressing at all.

I believe that Paul was addressing the issue of why God made a New Covenant and did not make it to be for the Jews alone. And also of why the Jews were so hard hearted. If you read it with this in mind, suddenly all the controversy of the entire passage is eliminated, and it starts to make sense with the rest of scripture, rather than contradicting it. I am not going to attempt a verse by vers explanation, but rather a brief overview of my opinion, it is then up to anyone to read the chapter with my opinion in mind and decide for themselves whether it is right or wrong.

The first thing to notice is that he is not talking about the gentiles to begin with, he is talking about the Jews. That is why he later in the passage references the prophecies of Elijah. He says he wishes he could be accursed from God so that by some means the Jews would hear the gospel and repent. Yet he cannot. After having read this prophecy his whole life, and then becoming a Christian, he begins with the Jews, why? Because they are his brothers whom he loves and wishes them to be saved, yet he cannot understand why they are so hard hearted until he reads the prophecy of Elijah.

The remnant he speaks of is a few of the Jews, as refrenced in the prophecy.

Now let me say that I am no scholar on the subject, neither am I an apologetics major, but I am sure that this is what Paul was talking about.

When Paul says "The vessels of wrath" who is he talking about? Common Christians would probably say: "Sinners".

And then they would say that "The vessels of mercy" are the "Christians".

But it is not so, the vessels of wrath reffered to are the Jews remaining from the Old Covenant that had hard hearts and would not accept the gospel as true.

The vessels of mercy are both the Jews that believed, and then also the gentiles that would come to believe.

Now, this is the only time in which Paul uses the phrase "Vessels of wrath". Yet he is constantly dealing with the issues of the saved, the unsaved, spirit vs flesh, and many other topics. How come it is then picked out, disected, and three verses chosen from the whole chapter to be a focal point of predestination?

The chapter has been done a disservice.



_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 15:28Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

.

Quote:
I believe you meant to say that God made the determination before the foundation of the world was laid that that Jesus must be crucified. The crucifixion did not occur until Jesus came in bodily form.



[b]Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[/b]

Now the question arises...

When was Christ slain?

From the foundation?

On the cross?

The answer is found in the foreknowledge of God, God knew he must have Christ die, therefore the plan was set in place at the foundation of the world. This does not mean that God predestined everything that has come to pass. He predestines a plan, and then it is up to the vessel whether they fulfill that plan or not. For everyone.

This is a good one for the predestination believers:

Does God predestine himself?
Or through his foreknowledge does He simply act?


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 15:37Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:


Quote:
I think it is equally damaging to preach "God loves you" as it is to preach "God hates you" without explaining it. If you hold a high standard for preaching "God's hate" you also have to hold the same standard for preaching "God's love."



Brother my point is we should preach the whole counsel of God

Paul preached Jesus Christ and him crusified by the power of the Holy Ghost, we are not called to preach just his attributes but Him a Person but he who is wise will make good use of the law of God which is a schoolmaster that brings the sinner to Christ


_________________
Redi

 2007/2/13 15:43Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben, I agree with you that God made the determination before the foundation of the world was laid that that Jesus must be crucified.

 2007/2/13 15:45Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy