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Discussion Forum : General Topics : God Hates sinners

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JoeA
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois

 Re:

Quote:
I don't think anyone has the right to align their ministries and theology with the God "hates' and "abhors" sinners verses if they haven't first wept in utter brokeness over them. To mention these verses with dry eyes and a unafflicted spirit not only disqualifies you, but it also brings you into a very dangerous mindset. There are certain things in the Holy Scriptures that can only be properly understood through deep travail and affliction. This is one of them.

The preacher who hasn't first wept over Psalms 5 and 7 brings incalculable damage to the Body of Christ when he presents them to the unsaved. And his teachings and preachings become like a lobotomizing spiritual virus infecting the minds of other dry-eyed, zealous saints.



Thank you brother.

Something else i think we've missed here is, did Jesus ever say "God hates you"? Shouldn't our preaching be aligned with the preaching of the Chief Apostle and Prophet? Have we a greater anointing or understanding of God's character and righteous judgments than He?

Maybe God is more angry today with sinners than He was when He walked the earth?

Whenever He spoke harshly, it was always to the religious crowd, who thought they were better than those filthy sinners. Maybe some are better than the average sinner, but i can truly say with Paul "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwelleth no good thing."

[b]Hebrews 13:8[/b]


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Joe Auvil

 2007/2/12 19:38Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Something else i think we've missed here is, did Jesus ever say "God hates you"? Shouldn't our preaching be aligned with the preaching of the Chief Apostle and Prophet? Have we a greater anointing or understanding of God's character and righteous judgments than He?



Are the "words in red" more inspired than the rest of the Bible? ;-) Just throwing out a "check."

If God wasn't angry at sinners, they would not need a propitiation.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/2/12 19:46Profile
JoeA
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois

 Re:

Quote:
Are the "words in red" more inspired than the rest of the Bible? Just throwing out a "check."



I didn't mean to imply that. Sorry if it seemed like i did. I said that our preaching should be like that of Christ. In essence, God's hatred for sin, and love for mankind are both summed up in the Cross. If He didn't abhor sin, there would be no need for propitiation as you said, but if He did not "so love the world", He wouldn't have given His only Son.

Where does the New Testament (and even the Old) lean on this issue? On God's lovingkindness and great mercy to the sinners who have gone from the womb rejecting Him. If He truly hated sinners in the way that some wolves are preaching, He would not have invested so much of Himself in the world.

I don't want to be a part of a debate here, and i'm sorry that it seems like i am. I just don't understand how some can say so much that God hates, when the Bible says so many more times that God loves.


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Joe Auvil

 2007/2/12 19:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Hebrews 13:8



Brother joeA, I read this very chapter about 30 minutes ago, and this verse was put to me for this discussion.
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, to day, and forever"
How amazing is that!!!
-Truly Christ is merciful, as He was then
-Truly Christ is full of grace and truth as He was then
-Truly Christ would warn of the wrath of God upon the unrepentant

I listened to Paul Washer the other day and he made a point that I had not realized before. He said that if you compound the Pauline epistles, and the other epistles as well, there is very little mentioned of hell. Yet if you look in the Gospels, Jesus warns of hell over and over again.

Truly God come in the flesh would have authority and knowledge over that which He created, and thus He cries out to the guilty with the throes of agony, "repent!"

One might ask, "but why did He? Was it solely so that man would not suffer?" I do not know, but maybe it is because it is the glory of God to save ruined and wasted men and women and create His Son in them.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/12 20:59Profile
Provost
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Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Thank You Paul West for your awesome comment.

 2007/2/12 22:08Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I didn't mean to imply that. Sorry if it seemed like i did. I said that our preaching should be like that of Christ.



I know what you meant. I was just throwing that out there. I know some seem to exhalt the words in red more than the rest of the Bible.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/2/13 10:30Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Ok, so are we all agreed that God hates sin?

And are we all agreed that God loves mankind as demonstrated at the cross?

It says in the scriptures that Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world was laid. Therefore, the demonstration of His magnificent love was prepared for men before we even came to be.

In reference to the "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." Paul was referencing The Old Covenant vs. The New Covenant, not individuals. "One for Honor, One for Dishonor." In context it becomes obvious what that means.

Do I need to quote John 3:16?

And by the way, two people have quoted Romans 5:8, which says that [u][b]while we were yet sinners[/b][/u] God showed [u][b]His love [/b][/u]toward us.

I think the point has been made. Context, Context, Context...


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/13 10:46Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
In reference to the "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." Paul was referencing The Old Covenant vs. The New Covenant, not individuals.



Never heard that before. Please explain.

 2007/2/13 11:31Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
And by the way, two people have quoted Romans 5:8, which says that while we were yet sinners God showed His love toward us.



Who is the 'us'? Is it not the elect? The elect that God chose before the foundation of the world?

Quote:
It says in the scriptures that Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world was laid. Therefore, the demonstration of His magnificent love was prepared for men before we even came to be.



I believe you meant to say that God made the determination before the foundation of the world was laid that that Jesus must be crucified. The crucifixion did not occur until Jesus came in bodily form.

 2007/2/13 11:42Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

John 3:15 That [b]whosoever believeth in him should not perish[/b], but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, [b]that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/b]
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 [b]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed[/b] in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I just wanted to point out that the emphasis is on "believing" in these passages.
It is true that God had merciful love upon the world and gave His Son, but that is not approving love, as those who do not believe are condemned already.

Now follow that up with the closing verse from John 3
John 3:36 [b]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life[/b]: and [b]he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/b]

As for the word "wrath", here is what Thayer says
G3709
ὀργή
orgē
Thayer Definition:
1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but especially anger
3) anger, wrath, indignation
4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
And here is Strong's
G3709
ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

Let's play nice :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/13 12:43Profile





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