| Re: MC|
Well to be honest I did see that you were careful to say you weren't directing the post at me...yet I did feel I needed to stand in proxy for the Evangelicals...if not for the emergents. Wer'e not all SUV-driving stock brokers sipping fruit coolers while we argue the finer points of our doctrine. ;-)
You know...sometimes I wonder what would happen if an Emergent Church merged with an Evangelical church. They could have the Evangelicals spearhead the orthodoxy and let the Emergents spearhead the orthopraxy.
It's foolishly simplistic I know.
Well, bless you brother. You love as big as you provoke.
| 2007/2/12 13:25||Profile|
| Mike Compton|
course I wasnt directing it at you dear brother!!
c'mon! We dont play that. and would you please do me a favor? (smile) Dont capitalize "evangelical" or "emergent church"?
sometimes I wonder what would happen if an Emergent Church merged with an Evangelical church.
some do, they just aint gonna be pigeonholed into a ecceliastical box, and why should they?
you got enough neo-pharisees out there ready to take pot shots at 'em.,.....
God bless you too, richly and in love, neil
| 2007/2/12 14:39|
| Re: is this church in todays society|
I hope this article helps.
This was taken from one of the past post on s.i. written by Brent Barnett.
Lisa's comment- Man being elevated above God can be seen clearly on the video strawrifle shared with us. Brothers and sisters this should grieve our hearts! It is clear in the video that the emerging church is making a God to suit their own fleshly desire. That is called idolatry! The video also shows how these people put their feelings above God's word. Much into feelings and not the truth. This is a danger that I see in many artsy christians. The pastor mentions nothing about God's word, but only what the people want. Much danger! This was what my ex pastor drifted into, the emergent scene. I am very familiar with this scene. It is a very dangerouse scene and need to be expose for its darkness! (eph. 5:11).
God bless, Lisa
Three Major Problems with the Philosophy Behind the Emerging Church
Culture (i.e. postmodernism) dictates church practice (i.e. methodology).
This is seen in the fact that the emerging church relies upon incense, art, images, and experiences to draw near to God and to worship Him. God says to worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24), but the emerging church finds ways other than what is described in the Bible to worship God. Worship consists of praising God through words and phrases that form coherent thoughts and propositions. It is not an emptying of the mind or any kind of mysticism. Yet the emerging church is a breeding ground of contemplative spirituality. Some use labyrinths to draw near to God. Others marvel at pictures that they paint. Others pray breath prayers which are vain repetitions which seek to empty the mind and literally hear a word from God. These are postmodern methods to worship the God of the Bible. The problem is that they are actually old Roman Catholic mystic methods, from which the Protestant church distanced itself. In an effort to be cutting edge, new, and conforming to culture, the emerging church is going backwards in time, repeating mistakes of history. This is why the Bible must dictate worship and not culture. If the church allows the surrounding culture to dictate its practice and means of worship, it will likely be assimilated into that culture, thereby losing its identity, power, and worth.
Theology is in a state of flux, changing as experiences, personal preferences, and needs change.
Simple words and phrases such as Jesus is God and by faith alone and grace alone have sent people to their death as martyrs. They are the difference between saving faith and an eternity in hell. These beliefs separate cults from the true church of Jesus Christ. Yet for the emerging church, theology is not something that we can be dogmatic about. They say that good people have come to different conclusions over the years, so why bother to make conclusive statements about theology at all? Thus, from their perspective, theology is not something concrete, absolute, and authoritative. In the past, people believed one way or another. Somebody was right, and somebody was wrong. Now nobody seems to know who is right and who is wrong, and, stranger still, that doesnt seem to bother anybody. This is the spirit of antichrist, tolerating anything and everything and standing upon nothing. The church is the pillar and support of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15), and truth is a body of doctrine as laid forth in the Bible through the Person of Jesus Christ. Without a confession of theology, there is no church. Thus, the emerging church is, in many ways, just an appeal to postmodernists who like to shape their religion and their God based upon how they feel on a given day.
Preaching is outdated because this generation does not like someone speaking to them authoritatively, especially if they dare to tell them that they are in the wrong.
This belief flows out of the previous two. If methods can be changed, why do we still need to preach? Some churches get rid of the pulpit because it is intimidating and authoritative. The emerging church gets rid of preaching altogether. Somebody might sit amongst a circle of peers and share what they think God is all about for them that particular day or week. They might reference a Scripture which relates to their journey, but their experience and feelings are front and center and not the Word of God. If somebody actually shares by standing up and opening up the Bible, they do not exhort or call to change and action. They narrate a story or read a passage of Scripture and stop. There is no need to exhort, rebuke, or call to action. It is not about conforming to an authoritative statement of Scripture but rather using Scripture to fortify fleshly desires of a journey that we take on our terms. The emerging church disdains preaching, because preaching asserts that there is a right and wrong and makes it sound as if the preacher actually knows the truth, implying that those who disagree are wrong. Such a reality is intolerable to the emerging church. The irony is that they can call preaching wrong or bad, but preachers are not allowed the same freedom in making a judgment based on the Bible. This is the problem with postmodern philosophies. Postmodern philosophies cant be argued if one is to be consistent.
At the end of the day, the emerging church doesnt even know what it is or what it believes. All is in flux, doubt reigns supreme, and experience and feeling are the rule. The funny thing is that the emerging church does seem to have some core beliefs, the largest being a commitment to the environment. There is an unwritten, but popular, belief that finally mankind will get it right as Jesus imparts grace to all. This earth will be our future home, and thus we had better take good care of it. That all men will be saved one way or the other by grace is called the New Perspective on Paul, propagated by N.T. Wright. Some of these issues cant be attributed directly to the emerging church or any church in particular. This is because what emerging church leaders and attendees believe varies from leader to leader, from person to person, from church to church, and from day to day. Yet certain philosophies make the rounds, this being one of them.
The emerging church is a contradiction and an ethereal entity. It is always unsure of itself, keeping up a continual conversation (one of their favorite words) but never coming to any real conclusions. It is not a biblical movement, because it denies the authority of the Word of God and elevates man to an improper place, one which is higher than God.
Will the movement last? As long as this generation likes it, it will. Yet only one thing will ultimately prevail. Cultures change, philosophies change, and movements come and go, but the Word of the Lord endures forever (1 Peter 1:25). Praise Him for His absolute nature and utter consistency. God is very clear about who He is, what He believes, and what He expects. Those who dont conform to His revealed Word will be judged by it.
When deceptions increase and their level of deceitfulness along with them (2 Timothy 3:13), we must always turn to the Word of God, because only it remains unchangeable. When a movement like the emerging church attacks the fact that logic is valid and that the Scriptures can even be understood, we had better be wary. God doesnt want to undermine His own Word. Why would He have bothered giving it to us in the first place if we cant understand it? When all is in supposed flux, God and His Word are immutable. Though people throughout history have tried to undermine the Word of God, God preserves it, and He always will. It is time to have a conversation with God over our sin in repentance through an appropriation of His Word.
By Brent Barnett
| 2007/2/12 15:02||Profile|
Hi,i just wanted to thank everyone for their comments..Also for being so friendly and polite!
Watching the clip again,i'm left feeling were all works in progress..For to long ive had a very low standards for myself,but strict for others..I seem to of become 80% Sinner and 20% Puritan i'm afraid..
| 2007/2/12 15:35||Profile|
| Re: Lisa--"myfirstLove"|
I WANT to say that is the worst post I have ever read on this forum, but I won't.
instead I want to ask two questions:
what do you mean by "artsy christians", could you define this label?
secondly, if you could be so transparent and honest, could you testify and describe your prior experience with what you call the "emerging church", and the error of your ex-pastor, and if I could be so bold, can you describe the place, the church that God has you now in?
| 2007/2/12 16:44|
yes. we are all works in progress, but one thing remains unchanged, the religious man, the "white-washed tomb" still has that stone in his hand, itching to cave the skull in, of those who don't say "yes and amen" to his religiousity and those forms of worship he deems "apostate".......and brother, that stone the religious man clutches aint the "Living Stone" that Peter spoke of in his first epistle. It's quite the opposite.
| 2007/2/12 16:48|
| Re: Mike Compton|
would you please do me a favor? (smile) Dont capitalize "evangelical" or "emergent church"?
No problem...except in those cases when we discuss historic Evangelical Christianity, dating back to Whitefield and Wesely, which is a far cry from the modern evangelical church. ;-)
the New Perspective on Paul, propagated by N.T. Wright.
This may sound like a diversion...but I think it might relate here.
Can someone please explain N. T. Wright's major ideas in a simple and unbiased manner? I can't seem to get a clear perspective on the new perspective.
| 2007/2/12 17:46||Profile|
I was not surprise to be attacked by you.
I WANT to say that is the worst post I have ever read on this forum, but I won't.
Bartle, you just said it.
What was your intent in posting the comment above? Because you wanted to make sure I knew this or else you wouldn't post that comment at all.
When I mention artsy christians, I meant many post modern professing christians worship art, just like it shows in the video.
secondly, if you could be so transparent and honest, could you testify and describe your prior experience with what you call the "emerging church", and the error of your ex-pastor,
I believe that Brent Barnett's article describes my experience with the emergent church well.
and if I could be so bold, can you describe the place, the church that God has you now in?
The fellowship I'm in now is certainly not perfect, but is not boldly commiting harlotry like most churches today.
The video says it all, and it baffles me that you cannot see the darkness of the emergent church. The people on the video expose themselves by the words they say. Can you not see that they worship a different Jesus? Can you not see that man is the center? Did you not hear that the pastor was more concern about what people wanted instead of standing on the truth of the Word?
The emergent church love the name of Jesus, but despises His cross!
Rob Bell openly shares how he does not see the need to preach on repentance and sin. He really believes that preaching like this is hate! I guess, he thinks that the Jesus in the bible is full of hate, so he makes up a different jesus that loves you no matter what, even if you are in known sins and don't care to be delivered from it.
1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
It does not take a super christian to see that the video was filled with love of the world, unless you yourself are full of the world too.
4 Adulterers and[a] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously?
Emergent churches believe in using the things of the world to draw people, especially the post mod. gen. My ex pastor was always into the new hot things/styles so he can use it for the church. He would watch movies and encourage other leaders to watch movies to find out what this generation is into so that he can use it to lure them into church. Emergent churches are really big into art in the most worldly way because they know that this generation is very much into art. My old church worshipped art. it was so disgusting. My old church was so into the emergent thing that it brought the world into the church and lust became prevalent. Because emergent church doesn't believe in preachiing about sin, the church fell into deep harlotry. Women were wearing loose clothing and the men loved it so! They believe in using slang and curse words in their preaching because thats what the post mods are into. They openly preach about sex using terms that should stay in the bedroom and describing in away that you won't believe! I can say with confidence that the emergent church is not of God, but the devil! I warn others to stay away from their doctrine and do not get involve with them. It is demonic!
Please read Brent Barnett's article again. He hits it straight clear about the emergent church.
I am warning with much love, stay away from this group, unless you are going to witness to them or called by God to blow the trumpet and cry aloud and show them their sins and their need to repent.
| 2007/2/12 21:16||Profile|
I was not surprise to be attacked by you.
Im sorry if you believed I attacked "you", and maybe the reason you weren't surprised that I posted in response of the absolutely poor choice of words, "artsy christian", because if you have read any of my postings, you know I make my living from art.
I did not say that was the worst post I've ever read on this forum, I said "I WANT to, but I won't"...I believe there are much much worse.
But the worst thing is, I opened the door for you to get transparent, real, honest, open about yourself, but you didnt. You didnt provide any testimony about your experience with what you term the "emergent church". You hurl accusations about poeple "worshiping" art, and how your fellowship is not "perfect", but its not a "harlot".
okay......if you dont want to get honest, bare your heart, talk about you and your experiences, okay. If all you want to do is to offer your opinion on how apostate and backslidden and wrong with those in what is called the "emergent church, okay, go for it. If you want to heap your self righteouness scorn on those in the video, okay .
Let me ask you a question, lets say that you, were a greeter at the local Wal Mart, and you go to your daily job, and ask the Lord, "fill me with Holy Spirit so that everyone I say "Welcome to Wal Mart!" sees you, please Lord let me reflect your love and shine Your Glory, and do my job to the best of my ability for You"
are you worshipping Wal Mart or are you worshipping God?
Its the same way with art, not only is it commerce, a job, but making art for and to the Glory of God, and it can be worship.
I feel you dont understand that, and I feel you dont want to be honest and real, only to castigate and heap scorn upon those you deem backslidden, worldly and apostate.
Don't worry, you're not alone, there's plenty that agree with you.
| 2007/2/12 21:55|
| Re: myfirstLove|
Bartle, what do you mean by honest and real? maybe, I didn't go into too much of my feelings?
I shared with you some that happend in my old church. Read my post again.
If you can get a hold of all my posts on s.i. you will see that I have shared a lot about my old church and what I went thru.
Those aren't accusations I hurled. It is very true what I said about the emergent church. I was in it. I was part of my pastors "inner circle". so I knew a lot about it. That was something that my pastor encourage his "inner circle leaders" to study and learn the ways of the emergent church. I refer you to Brent Barnett's teaching on it because I am not gifted at teaching. Brent explains the emergent way better than I can.
When I said artsy christians, I meant christians who are into art. The artsy was not meant to be a bad word. I didn't say God doesn't use art. I said that the emergent people worship art. If not all, many.
Now when paul says all cretans are liars, did he mean are creatans, or maybe most?
Here's a story I want to share with you to help you understand what backsliding is and how most christians are in it right now.
I just met this new christian at a prayer meeting. He's been saved for 3 months. You could tell this was a true conversion. He use to be into drugs and hanging out with murderers. He shared with us when He gave His life to Jesus, God delivered him from addiction immediately! This guy is so on fire for God! Its beautiful! He talks about the cross and how He just want to totally give his life to Christ no matter the cost! It was awesome and refreshing to hear this brother and you sense a real fire in Him filled with so much faith! Just looking at him can make me understand why faith pleases God!
He was sharing how he was witnessing at a bowling place. He handed a guy a track and ask if he knew Jesus. This guy answered back and said yes, I wrestle for Jesus! Now, this friend of mine is a new christian and was sharing how absurd that is to wrestle for Christ and knew that this was not from God. My friend doesn't know much about the bible, but man, you could really tell he loves Jesus and is willing to give it all to Christ, that Jesus is His First Love. No one had to tell him that wresling for Jesus is not of Christ and how very wordly that is. The sad thing is in today's christianity, alot of christians would really have to ponder over this, to ask the Lord if wrestling for Him is of God!
This is what happends when christians are backsliding and loose their First Love, they cannot tell evil from good and good from evil anymore.
26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.
This reminds me so much why we need revival. It is weeping and fasting time!
| 2007/2/13 0:02||Profile|