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 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
Compton,

Here's the ID explanation from the wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

it says that ID argues for something different than natural selection, which is confusing to me because I see natural selection as part of the whole design of God. Why would God need to intervene in His creation as it worked to produce intelligent beings that have spiritual lives, such as ourselves? Wouldn't He get it right in the first place??!

Bub

[b]Dear Bubba

First, as was said, thanks for your gracious responses - especially when we all dump on you!

No scientist would doubt the reality of Natural Selection - its still happening today! But it could never be a mechanism for Evolution, as some - even scientists - often seem to imagine. .

The reason is that Natural Selection [u][i]is going in the opposite direction[/u][/i] from Evolution! Natural Selection often causes a LOSS in genetic complexity, not a gain (which Evolution requires).

We can see that more clearly in "unnatural" selection, such as dog breeding. "Pure" bred dogs often have genetic weaknesses specific to the breed, and are far less healthy than crosses. The "pure", inbred varieties just don't have enough genetic variation, which is why breeders have such hard work to get healthy stock and breed out faults.

Another example: When men first spread to all parts of the world, some would have ended up in tropical countries while others moved to temperate or colder areas. In hotter areas a dark skin is an advantage because of the risk of skin cancer etc. In colder areas dark skin is a DISadvantage because vitamin D is made in the skin with the help of sunlight, and a dark skin cuts down on this.

So dark skinned people had an advantage in hot areas, and light-skinned in colder areas. In the first, light skinned folk were less healthy and didn't live as long, in the second it was the other way around. Eventually the ability to produce a lot of dark skin colour may have died out completely in some populations living in cold countries - the "white" races. And white-skinned folk might die out in the hotter areas.

This is an example of natural selection through "survival of the fittest", not Evolution.

Can you see any evidence of gain in genetic complexity in the example?

Mmm that turns the idea of "White superiority" on its head!

Hope that helps.


Jeannette[/b]

 2007/2/10 15:43
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

this film is great, or so i thought :-) hope it helps someone , proof of Gods existence


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1760096128712631511&q=chuck+missler&hl=en


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/10 15:49Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hello Bubba,

Curious mixture here...

Quote:
Why would God need to intervene in His creation as it worked to produce intelligent beings that have spiritual lives, such as ourselves? Wouldn't He get it right in the first place??!



Isn't 'getting it right the first time' a creationist position? ;-) I feel your question misses an essential doctrine of natural selection; namely that the evolutionary record is not a story of getting it right the first time, but a series of mysterious extinctions and even cataclysmic familial dead ends.

One could reply to your subjective question with equal subjectivity, "Why didn't God get it right the first time?" Why would it take Him 4 billion years to 'produce intelligent beings with spiritual lives?'

Thanks,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/10 15:53Profile









 Re: film

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
this film is great, or so i thought :-) hope it helps someone , proof of Gods existence


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1760096128712631511&q=chuck+missler&hl=en

[b]Didn't have time tonight to watch all of it, but liked the bit seen!

Jeannette[/b]

 2007/2/10 15:57
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

id recomend if you only have a little time, watch from 12 min into the movie and just watch a couple of minutes , its amazing what a creator we have!!!


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/10 16:07Profile
NewCovWinDor
Member



Joined: 2007/2/10
Posts: 72
A Little Town In Iowa

 Re: evolution

Greetings!

One thing to keep in mind... the best way to detect a counterfeit is to know the original!


"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."


We can certainly trust that God's Word is telling us the truth. Wherever science may seem to "contradict" it, we can easily say that it is the "science" that is at fault. After all, men's theories have changed and will continue to change no matter how sure he may be of them.

Yet, God's Word has not changed a bit, and never shall... "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away."

We must keep this in mind as we navigate the treacherous waters of our flesh-crippled reasoning. "My ways are not your ways, and your thoughts are not My thoughts."

Praise the Lord for the wonderful mind He has endowed us with... and praise the Lord for the faith that tempers it!

Here are a few websites that I have found helpful in the Creation/Evolution/ID/Compromise debate.

www.answersingenesis.org
Excellent general resource. Some articles a bit repetitive, but lots of information nonetheless. AiG is one of the oldest and largest Young-Earth Creationist sites on the web.

www.creationontheweb.org
CMI is an Australian organization formerly affiliated with AiG, though now an independent. Has links to a huge variety of articles from Creation magazine.

www.icr.org
Another old and well-established apologetics ministry. Lots of information available.

www.globalflood.org
Very scholarly and in-depth... a bit over my head! Deals with lots of the technical details of the world-wide disaster known as 'Noah's flood'... the probable cause of the millions of ancient fossil relics that have been recovered.

www.worldwideflood.com
This one is a little more on the layman's level. Lots of pictures, diagrams and articles relating to the Noachian flood. Promotes some 'free-thinking' with regard to ark shape... still very interesting.

Yes, these are mostly all from literal-six-day-young-earth-creationist-Bible-thumpers... but I'm one too, so that doesn't bother me!

In all seriousness, though, we must be careful to read all 'information' objectively. Wikipedia.org is a good place to look for general secular information regarding evolution, but be forewarned that they will have a secular slant to them; just as the above websites do to the Christian worldview! (Personally, I'd rather be a little more to God's side than the World's side, don't you think? )

Remember... God's Word is the absolute authority. What the Lord says goes, no matter how loud the World may shout otherwise.

Farewell in Jesus,


_________________
Ryan G.

 2007/2/10 17:08Profile









 Re:

Compton,

I don't think it really matters what physical forms our spiritual beings developed within. if evolution had taken a different turn, perhaps a reptilian form of life would have developed the mental capacities and spiritual identities of mammalian humans. perhaps this is happening on other planets. the point is to explore the Creation and come to know and worship the Creator through this process.

God got it right because the universe produces life in abundance. Cherish it and praise God!

Bubbaguy

 2007/2/10 17:09
NewCovWinDor
Member



Joined: 2007/2/10
Posts: 72
A Little Town In Iowa

 Re:

Greetings, brethren!

As I said previously, "What the Lord says goes."

"And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good."
(Genesis 1:31)

Keep that phrase 'very good' in your mind.

A question to consider:
Can we consider death to be a normal part of life? After all, "Time and Death are the keys to Evolution."

Let's think a bit here...

It appears that death is not a normal part of life (as it was originally intended), for we can see that both in Genesis 3 and in everyday life... look at the tragedy of a human's death, or even that of a pet or something else. We feel revulsion at the sight and smell of death. If it is so alien to us, how can we explain its ghastly existence?

My next question would be:
Would God, Who is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, PURE and LOVING, have placed Adam and Eve over the top of a fossil graveyard full of dead things that were simply 'not good enough to make it'? That is the essence of macro-Evolution, as we saw above. Could such an evolving world rightly be called 'very good'? Why would He make man to decay and die, especially in a 'very good' world? Why is there death?

Let's also consider the Lake of Fire, the place where Satan, his angels and ungodly men shall be cast in the Judgement; it is a place "Prepared for the Devil and his angels...", not prepared originally for man! So, why is it there? Why is there death, and then punishment for the wicked at the end?

The answer is a simple, three-letter word called SIN... with the letter "I" right in the middle of it. It's about choices. Choices that men make.

God, in this 'very good' world He created, made a Garden and placed man therein. He gave one (and only one) negative command... "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Very simple and easy to obey, but man decided to rebel. He had a simple choice... even as we have the choice during a time of temptation. He chose to yield to the words of his wife and the serpent that deceived her. To disobey is to rebel. To rebel is to sin. To sin is to die.

Now, we have a sin-cursed world that is full of suffering and death. It is only being sustained by God's hand... until the End. Why is there death? Because of man's sin. Death is the payment for sin... "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." (cf. Ezekiel 18)

That is why origins are so critical. Christians are made the laughingstock of the world because we don't have answers to their questions, or because we kow-tow to their changing ideas of origins. We can't explain death and suffering!

"If God created the world, then He created you. If God created you, then God owns you. If God owns you, then He sets the rules."
(Ken Ham, apologist)

This is why the world is trying so hard to disprove the Bible, or twist it out of context (e.g. Gap Theory, Theistic Evolution, Progressive Creationism [Day-Age Theory] and a host of others). It is the seed of rebellion that sprouted in man's heart the moment he yielded to temptation.

"Lord, give Thy servants strength and unction to speak out against the wickedness of this fallen world. Let us not be afraid to stand on Your Word and speak your Truth boldly with our lives and our mouths."

Hallelujah, amen!


_________________
Ryan G.

 2007/2/10 17:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
Compton,

I don't think it really matters what physical forms our spiritual beings developed within. if evolution had taken a different turn, perhaps a reptilian form of life would have developed the mental capacities and spiritual identities of mammalian humans. perhaps this is happening on other planets. the point is to explore the Creation and come to know and worship the Creator through this process.

God got it right because the universe produces life in abundance. Cherish it and praise God!

Bubbaguy

[b]
But what some of us are trying to say is that

1. While God [i]could[/i] have used Evolution as a mechanism for creating life, the Bible says (in Genesis, which is a historical, not a symbolic book) that He didn't! So we have to choose who to believe, God or man!

2. Evolution, as well as being bad theology, is bad [i][u]science[/u][/i]!

What the Bible says happened (for example that all living things were created as distinct "kinds") actually ties in far better with true science than Evolution does.

Scientifically, it is basically impossible that Evolution could even have got started form the "primordial slime", however many billions of years there were.


...I know where you are coming from, because I was there too. We have been brainwashed by pseudo-scientific ideas that are basically anti-God.

So, not only is Evolution opposed to what the Bible says happened, it is not even properly verified by good scientific methods. In my view, Evolution is not even fit to be called a theory. Its just an extremely unlikely hypothesis, made by men who reject God. Tragically it has by now deceived many - even some of "the elect" - such as yourself.

You have probably been reading too much popular science and science fiction. (Been there, done that, the Lord gave me strength to throw away the T-shirt :-)). He had to set my mind and spirit free from this horrible anti-God worldview, that pretends Evolution is scientific - to such an extent that it deceives even scientists.

[i][color=000099]Romans 1:
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.[/color][/b][/i]


Jeannette[/b]

 2007/2/11 13:19
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Sorry to take so long to reply, but, LittleGift, you have declared openly that you are an evolutionist!!!

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
This is an example of natural selection through "survival of the fittest", not Evolution.

The evolutionists claim that there is a process of natural (as opposed to divine or intelligent design) selection, that selects the creature with the genetic material that enables it to survive best within the environment it finds itself. The mechanism of natural selection is 'the survival of the fittest". That is those creatures whose genetic material best equips them for the environment in which they find themselves, whether by being better able to find or use food, better able to find or attract mates and therefore reproduce, better able to survive the climate or other external circumstances, those creatures survive and by pass on their genetic material to the next generation. Their genes may only give them a small advantage, but over several generations or maybe several hundred generations, they will begin to predominate. Your dark and white skin example, if it is valid, would have any evolutionist jumping for joy that a Christian supports their views.

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
The reason is that Natural Selection is going in the opposite direction from Evolution! Natural Selection often causes a LOSS in genetic complexity, not a gain (which Evolution requires).

This is simply not true. There are several ways that creatures can gain genetic materials, plasmids, viruses, mutations, errors during meiosis etc. The transfer of antibiotic resistance between difference types of bacteria is a well document example of one of these natural techniques where new genetic materials is acquired by bacteria that previously did not have it and so providing them with enzymes that destroy antibiotics. This enables them to [i]survive as the fittest[/i], whereas their fellow bacteria without these new genes are killed. Once gained, if that genetic material gives an advantage one will be natural selected for, and it works well for bacteria which we are trying to destroy with our modern drugs. So natural selection causes neither a gain or loss of genetic material, it is other mechanisms that do this. What natural selection does, is select those who having gained or changed their genetic material and are better able to prosper in their current environment?

Are you really an evolutionist?

Mike

 2007/3/12 6:42Profile





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