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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

nobody wrote:

I agree that we all need to get more serious about the faith, but I don't see your distinction that women are in better shape at all.

The idea of men leading was my focus. If the men had faith, they would be like the centurion in Luke 7. They would be humble, lowly in spirit, and thirsting after righteousness. The women would see God in them and then submit willingly because they see the beauty of Scripture being worked out in their mate. They would see the promise being fulfilled. The women are stumbling and groping for something better. It is the man who is responsible.

To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."


This verse speaks more to the fallen nature that women will experience. Their solution is, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, [b]who[/b]
do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1

Many are quick to point out that Abraham or David failed many times in faith, and yet God was faithful. Many do not talk about the consequence that come about because they chose not to follow God.

My accusation still stands, in what do the men place their faith in? The world or God?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/3/8 11:04Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Nobody writes
I have a few comments on that. There are some weak men in the church, but at the same time it is usually women who seek to gain authority rather than begrudgingly accepting it for lack of other options. Part of the curse is that women desire the authority that has been given to men!

16To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

She didn't suddenly desire her husband in any new way - their love was perfect in the garden. What was new is the desire to have the authority that was denied her.

Hi nobody
I think you are mistaken on two counts here.
1. The woman was NOT cursed
2. Your interpretation of v16 is the opposite of what it says.

A careful reading of Gen 3 in an archaic version (KJV which uses 'thou') will show that God held the serpent and the man responsible for what had transpired. Gen 3:1-5 shows Satan conversing with the woman but the topic of conversation is 'you/ye -plural (Adam and Eve) not 'thou' singular (Eve) It has become traditional to speak of Eve having this conversation when Adam was absent, but there is no indication of this in the narrative.

v9 shows that God's initial conversation is with Adam and God uses 2nd person singular pronouns - thou, thy, etc. It was to the man that God had committed the command that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden. "in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'. (note the 2nd pers sing pronouns) Adam (shame on him) immediately blames the woman whom thou gavest to be with me. The woman claims that she was beguiled; this testimony was true (1Tim 2:14) She blames the serpent.

The serpent has nothing to say to God who pronounces the first curse "thou art cursed" (Gen 3:14)

unto the woman he said "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"

Note the absence of the word 'because'. God uses it of Satan's action and Adam's but not Eve's. There is no 'because' in his conversation with Eve. This is no curse (although many a woman has called it so). Why would increased fertility be regarded as a curse when in Gen 1:28 it is stated to be a blessing? But there is certainly 'change' here. The effect of these changes was to make the woman consciously more dependent upon the man, and the consequence is that he (it is specially emphasised in the Hebrew) shall rule over thee. This indicates a change in the original relationship, or at least an addition.

Matthew Henry once wrote "the woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved". Is is a lovely concept. This is woman not as a a help-meet, but as one who perfectly 'answers' (as in a mirror) the man. There is no mention of 'rule' at this stage. There was no necessity for man to rule woman in an Edenic world; nor will be there be such a need in the New Heaven and New Earth. In the meantime however we have to live on this 'cursed earth'. It was to the man that God had given the 'teaching' about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam had received the revelation; he was the teacher. (examining EVe's answer may indicate that either teacher or student was less than precise in what was being taught.)

It is now almost impossible for us to use the word 'rule' as it was used in Genesis 1-3. Gen 1:17 tells us that God made the sun 'to rule the day' and the moon 'to rule the night'. When was the last time you heard the sun bossing the day about? ;-) They 'rule' by lighting up the darkness. They are light-bearers; they "shed light on the situation". The man's role was to 'lead' into truth, and he would not need to impose such a rule because 'her desire would be unto her husband'. She would be willing to be lead, and she was to follow that instinct. Notice that God did not tell the man to rule the woman; He told the woman that the man would rule her. (Brothers our job is not to tell our 'woman' that we are the head of the house and have the rule. Our job is to love our 'woman' as Christ loved his Church.) This will sound completely chauvinist but here we go... the only time a woman will fight this instinct is when she doesn't feel safe, and if she doesn't feel safe that will inevitably be 'man's fault'. The woman is the 'weaker vessel' not intellectually, emotionally or physically, but in that God has built unique dependence into her nature. (physically? I once carried heavy weights for a living in the Wedgwood Factory in the UK, but I have seen an African woman, with a baby on her back, swing a huge drum of water onto her head and walk away with it. I doubt I could have lifted it off the ground!)

To return to Genesis 3.17 When God speaks to the man He says 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and hast eaten...' What follows is a direct consequence, not of Eve's eating, but of the Adam's... Cursed is the ground for thy sake... Please note again the 2nd pers singular use of 'thou, thee, thy'. The world is in the mess it is, not because of Eve, but because of Adam. He was the federal head of the race. Eve's sin had no knock-on consequence for the human race; Adam's has affected us all. Paul captures the significance of all this in Roman 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/9 6:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Chanin
Luckily the Lord has shown me something called "forebearance".

That has nothing to do with 'luck' ;-) but everything to do with the way God works...

"The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way." Psalm 25:9



_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/9 6:35Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Ron,

Thank you for your posts! I was hoping one of you MEN would put things in the right perspective. :-)

The women who are on this forum (which most might be unseen) may appreciate this "God's Letter to Woman". Actually men might appreciate it too. :-)

[b]God's Letter to Woman[/b]

When I created the heavens and the earth, I spoke them into being. When I created man, I formed him and breathed life into his nostrils. But you, woman, I fashioned after I breathed the breath of life into man, because your nostrils are too delicate. I allowed a deep sleep to come over him so I could patiently and perfectly fashion you. Man was put to sleep so that he could not interfere with the creativity.

From one bone, I fashioned you. I chose the bone that protects man's life. I chose the rib, which protects his heart and lungs and supports him, as you are meant to do. Around this one bone, I shaped you.......I modeled you. I created you perfectly and beautifully. Your characteristics are as the rib, strong yet delicate and fragile. You provide protection for the most delicate organ in man, his heart. His heart is the center of his being; his lungs hold the breath of life. The rib cage will allow itself to be broken before it will allow damage to the heart.

Support man as the rib cage supports the body. You were not taken from his feet, to be under him, nor were you taken from his head, to be above him. You were taken from his side, to stand beside him and be held close to his side. You are my perfect angel.....You are my beautiful little girl. You have grown to be a splendid woman of excellence, and my eyes fill when I see the virtues in your heart. Your eyes......don't change them. Your lips - how lovely when they part in prayer. Your nose, so perfect in form. Your hands, so gentle to touch. I've caressed your face in your deepest sleep. I've held your heart close to mine. Of all that lives and breathes, you are most like me.

Adam walked with me in the cool of the day, yet he was lonely. He could not see me or touch me. He could only feel me. So, everything I wanted you to share and experience with me, I fashioned in you; my holiness, my strength, my purity, my love, my protection and support. You are special, because you are an extension of me. Man represents my image, woman my emotions. Together, you represent the totality of God.

So man......treat woman well. Love her, respect her, for she is fragile. In hurting her, you hurt me. What you do to her, you do to me. In crushing her, you only damage your own heart, the heart of your Father, and the heart of her Father.

Woman, support man. In humility, show him the power of emotion I have given you. In gentle quietness, show your strength. In love, show him that you are the rib that protects his inner self.

Satisfied in Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2004/3/9 9:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Thankyou Ron for expressing thoughtfully God's plan. Also thankyou for repeating Chanin's thought in hope that I might understand. The Lord has much work to do in my life.

Please forgive me when I am nebulous, when I am harsh, when I take for granted that everyone must believe as I do. The Holy Spirit must speak, but I get in the way many times.

I don't know any old men like Ron. (Old in the Lord). Being meek and lowly of spirit is evidence of one who has walk with His Lord.

IN Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/3/9 13:03Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Ron,

I don't care what anyone else says; I think you're cool :-D

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/3/9 13:11Profile









 Re:


We used this one all the time when I was growing up. "I don't care WHAT anybody else says, I think your ok." This is a backhanded compliment, if I ever heard one.

Jake

 2004/3/9 13:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Ron,

I don't care what anyone else says; I think you're cool

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey

er, thanks Hulsey... I think. :-P


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/9 13:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Please forgive me when I am nebulous, when I am harsh, when I take for granted that everyone must believe as I do. The Holy Spirit must speak, but I get in the way many times.

Don't give up, rookie. God hasn't finished yet... with either of us.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/9 13:55Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Quote:

jake wrote:

We used this one all the time when I was growing up. "I don't care WHAT anybody else says, I think your ok." This is a backhanded compliment, if I ever heard one.

Jake



Jake,

Luckily for me, Ron understands my lighthearted use of sarcasm.

Hulsey


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/3/9 13:57Profile





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