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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Provost
i agree that God holds the teachers accountable for their words. He holds us all accountable for our words, our every word in fact. My point is we should indeed filter everything through scripture, not scripture as we understand it, but as revealed by Holy Spirit. Who better to reveal scripture to us than Holy Spirit Himself since He wrote it. You and i have probably said some things way out of line concerning God out of ignorance but does that mean we are rendered useless as far as God is concerned. Too often we write people off because they say something we disagree with (sometimes we are right to disagree) but we forget that we have done the same and yet God has shown us mercy and uses us still. This is where we ought to be careful and filter everything through the word, take it before God and let Him try it to see if it is of Him or not. i never said i agreed with everything Myles Munroe said but that some of the things i heard from him made all the sense in the world after i sought God about them and He put them into the proper context for me.

people could say after listening to you or me that they didn't know where we got our revelation from. does that invalidate what we know God has shown us? no, it means (assuming God did in fact give us revelation) that the others haven't yet received the revelation. Sometimes our perception even through scripture is warped and we see some things poorly because our perception is just that, our perception rather than viewing things through the eyes of God Himself.

Quote:
Help me polish up I know I need it. But I only want to listen to people who truly are searching the face of Christ(not saying your not IRONMAN you have been making me think I like that). I get nervous when people start commanding God for passing things (money, increas, etc), and preach subjects that take the focus off Christ and on to what you can force your faith to do.



this is what i love about S.I. we can all get polished. i've not held a gun to your head and made you do anything. you decided on your own based on what i said that you may think i'm not after the Face of God. i assure you i am. i don't think that it is a bad thing to ask God for increase in passing things provided the purpose is for the benefit of the Body which is the Glorification of God. God doesn't just meet our spiritual needs, He tends to our physical needs also. Some people ask God for increase to satisfy their fleshly lusts (self-benefit) and we can agree this is wrong. How is asking for God's provision in the physical not seeking His face? Because it benefits man? do you think that man is the final beneficiary in that situaton? God is because He gets the glory, men see God tending to their physical needs and that draws men in. have you every tried preaching the gospel to someone who is hungry and yet you have nothing to offer him? God has been showing me about this very thing in connection with the business ventures He's showing me about. at first i was concerned about how it would look. i didn't see the connection to the gospel until i began to see that this is part of the ministry God has for me. God is not solely in the business of tending to spiritual needs, He tends to physical ones also.

like i said, i never said i agreed with everything Myles Munroe said, but some of the things he has said make sense to me since Holy Spirit put it into the proper context. i'm conceding here that Myles Munroe may have miscommunicated perfectly scriptural principle because of seeing them in the wrong light.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/7 11:53Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 on the word of faith

brethren
you know, there is something to be said about the word of faith concept. note i said concept not movement. The word of faith is calling out those things that are not as though they are. some may say, name it and claim it, blab and grab or whatever. here is the deal. When God said "light be" that was speaking the word of faith. there was no light and even though this was the fact, God rebuked it and called light though it was not into being and so it was. The miracles which were done by our Lord, the ones in which He spoke something contrary to what was are an exercise in the word of Faith in its truest sense. the word of Faith is speaking forth those things which are not as though they were (a rebuking of what is) in as much as it lines up with what God is doing. if you speak forth things out of your own selfish desires then that is abuse and is obviously wrong. there are those who teach and pratice this and this is in gross error. i agree with you in standing against such erroneous teaching, however, lets not toss out the baby with the bathwater here and lets see the Word of Faith in the context of what God has done,is doing and looking to do now and in the future.

Quote:
Benny Hinn is part of this word of faith movement, and I distrust anyone who appears along side him on his show, for they are, by their appearence, standing with him and his false doctrine.



let us be clear, not every one of us is right all the time so by the same token, we should apply this to ourselves. if we did then we'd all stop listening to eachother because all of us have been wrong at some point about some thing about God. The thing is to filter everything throuh God and His word, not our perception of Him and His word but Him and His word. for example, this word of faith movement. is the way they are teaching wrong, sure it is, however the concept of the Word of Faith upon viewing it in the proper context makes all the sense in the world. i don't listen much to benny hinn, every now and then though i'll catch someone on TBN, maybe Jakes, or even Paula White and God will have me tune in and teach me something through them. sure sometimes they miscommunicate certain concepts or mangle them altogether but i bless God for His Holy Spirit who communicates perfectly and unmangles things so they are clear in the proper context of what God is working out. i'm sure we have at some point miscommunicated and mangled things but God has straightened them out in the mind of whoever is listening. it's like digging for gold, in some places gold is easy to find, in others, there is a lot of soil and rock and other waste which must be removed first. i don't go searching for these people in the hopes of finding anything, but at times our Lord leads me to certain ones for certain things which i take hold of and then move on.

Quote:
I know how black and white my statements have been. Scripture states that we must speak the truth...in love. Hopefully I have the correct motives in writing these words. I do not write to condemn anyone here, but out of a true concern for your walk with our Precious Lord and Savior.



i feel your motives are indeed right and the word is black and white cocnerning this. however we ought to be careful in our application. one ought not to dismiss someone totally over wrong teaching. the wrong teaching itself must be dismissed lest we all dismiss eachother. There is one thing which must also be shone forth, Mercy. God has showed us mercy in spite of ourselves and it is only right that we show it to others.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/7 12:28Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re: on the word of faith

[size=x-small][color=000099]2Cr 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. [/color]

[/size][color=000099]2Cr 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. [/color]


[color=000099]Phl 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.) [/color]

These are strong words from the apostle Paul. Those who twist and pervert the word of God are still with us today. I have not recently studied word of faith teachings, I turned away from it years ago. Therefore I cannot refute their teaching in any specific manner. My objection to them is based on the aformentioned book "Christianity in Crisis". This book has many quotes from these "men of God" that would turn the stomach of any true believer. If I still had this book I would dig some out and post them. If anyone does have this book, would you be willing to post a few of these quotes? I apoligize to you brother for taking such an uncompromising view on this. But I have very strong convictions on this matter.

Again, it would be easy to be offended by my stance. If you knew someone who was considering the teachings of Joseph Smith and did not understand how unbiblical they were would you not feel it your duty to warn them? Would you be speaking to them out of condemnation or love?

In all sincerity and care,

and as always, In His Love,

Doug


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Doug Fussell

 2007/2/7 13:00Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re: on the word of faith

Before I start Ironman I never wanted to say that you were not seeking the face of Christ. I even tried showing that in my response

First concept that is wrong about the word faith movement is the concept that they can call things that be not as though they were. Romans 4:17 Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians 1:17 go against people being the callers or creators.
2nd is they will say well we can b/c Scripture says we are a little lower than God. How stupid (no nice way of putting it)! To be a little lower than God is to be infinately lower than God.
My problem with TBN is the disgusting abuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The only thing the Holy Spirit has shown me in TBN was exactly how His gifts are perverted and abused. I believe in the gifts and that they are for today. In my studies so far in Scripture you couldn't tell me otherwise, but you also could never tell me that the freakshows sponsered by the word faith movement are Holy Spirit inspired (i.e. send money and we'll pray over a towel, screaming shaking a falling after prayer, or laughing like someone who should be locked up)
He would not dare to belittle Christ in such a manner.
TBN is a big fan of saying well everyone is wrong sometimes...But to have your teachings foreign to Scriptures (99% of the time i.e Paula White day in and out commanding $ and preaching send first fruits to me if you want to be blessed) is sick and leading people astray and converting people to a Christ never seen in the Bible.
I am not taking salvation away from anyone. I am also not heresy who refuses to let the Spirit move. But I know that while seeking the face of God the Holy Spirit clearly lead me away from the teachings seen in the Word Faith movement. I can thank the Lord that He opened my eyes and freed me from the bondage of their false teachings

 2007/2/7 13:01Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

While in my old church I personally did research on everyone we are in covenant with and I have 20 pages of bogus quotes if anyone is interested hit me up thom@closing.shorewest.com
also here are some videos of people under the "influence of the Spirit"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjujnAs-6tM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piHJxXhDTuw&NR

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1309655344938122063&q=kenneth+copeland&hl=en

I will fight for my faith. I also promise you all I am not a pharisee. But I can not stand when Christ is represented in this manner. If people want $ or an emotional high they can get that without Christ. I want everyday to show people how the life of Christ in more than anything imaginable and to see these acts and teachings in the name of Christ mourns me.
Thom

 2007/2/7 13:14Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug

Quote:
These are strong words from the apostle Paul. Those who twist and pervert the word of God are still with us today. I have not recently studied word of faith teachings, I turned away from it years ago. Therefore I cannot refute their teaching in any specific manner. My objection to them is based on the aformentioned book "Christianity in Crisis". This book has many quotes from these "men of God" that would turn the stomach of any true believer. If I still had this book I would dig some out and post them. If anyone does have this book, would you be willing to post a few of these quotes? I apoligize to you brother for taking such an uncompromising view on this. But I have very strong convictions on this matter.



i agree, i'm not saying we should follow after the word of faith movement teachings. i'm saying there is something to be said about the Word of Faith, namely professing something which isn't as though it were. i know the wof has some corruption to it. i would ask though is it any worse than the corruption we have in our own hearts sometimes? anyhow i'm not for the twisting of scripture in anywise bro, you and me are agreed on that. im just saying that the profession of the Word of Faith as it lines up with what God is doing, note that what God is doing doesn't please our flesh and this is not what i'm advocating.

Quote:
Again, it would be easy to be offended by my stance. If you knew someone who was considering the teachings of Joseph Smith and did not understand how unbiblical they were would you not feel it your duty to warn them? Would you be speaking to them out of condemnation or love?



i'm not offended bro. you're misunderstanding what i'm saying it seems. i'm not saying we ought not to warn people of false doctrines. we should, however we should also not be so blind to our own failures that we begin to perceive that if someone is wrong on one thing, he is wrong on all things. if we did this, we certainly wouldn't be able to learn from eachother at all.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/7 15:07Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:



{quotes}

I just don't understand if all these Pastors mentality's of the Gospel are for tickling ears or if their mindset has a what best for me attitude.

Peter wrote these words to elders who would have been familiar with sheep and shepherding:

I exhort the elders among you ... shepherd the flock of God ... exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily,
.....................

{quote}

My point is we should indeed filter everything through scripture, not scripture as we understand it, but as revealed by Holy Spirit.
......................

These are very important quotes to pick up on.

I heard Myles speak a couple of times. He is a motivation speaker. I don't know this for sure but, I'm pretty sure he makes his living speaking in he secular world as a motivation speaker in the business world as a profession. He also writes many books to sell and has them for sale when he speaks at events. I haven't read any but some sounded interesting. He is a graduate from Oral Roberts and has a doctorate, probably theology.

peace, mercy, and grace
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2007/2/7 15:32Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Provost
i should have titled my initial statement "on The Word of Faith" to emphasize that it is not related to the movement by the same name. i'm not advocating what the teach or do.

Quote:
First concept that is wrong about the word faith movement is the concept that they can call things that be not as though they were. Romans 4:17 Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians 1:17 go against people being the callers or creators.



ah, now i took a look at that scripture and it is speaking to God being the only one able to create out of nothing. it seems i used a poor expression to get my point across and thus caused confusion. forgive me brethren. i was using that expression in the context of for example, when Peter told that lame man to get up and walk in Acts chapter 3, that man was lame and Peter told him to get up and walk as though he could even though the man was lame. that's what i mean by the Word of Faith. Furthermore Peter said what he did under inspiration and unction from Holy Spirit otherwise it wouldn't have happened. it seems the wof movement is in error concerning this concept. clearly we see Peter here saying something which isn't as though it were, note he was under unction and didn't do it for his own glorification, but rather to the Father's and the Father saw to it that his request was carried out. see what i mean now? or perhaps you have a better phrase i could use rather than Word of Faith, wouldn't want to cause any further confusion.

Quote:
2nd is they will say well we can b/c Scripture says we are a little lower than God. How stupid (no nice way of putting it)! To be a little lower than God is to be infinately lower than God.



first, we're made a little lower than the angels who themselves are below God, not sure that they are infinately below HIm, after all they dwell with Him in heaven. don't know of a scripture verse which speaks to that.

Quote:
My problem with TBN is the disgusting abuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The only thing the Holy Spirit has shown me in TBN was exactly how His gifts are perverted and abused. I believe in the gifts and that they are for today. In my studies so far in Scripture you couldn't tell me otherwise, but you also could never tell me that the freakshows sponsered by the word faith movement are Holy Spirit inspired (i.e. send money and we'll pray over a towel, screaming shaking a falling after prayer, or laughing like someone who should be locked up)



oh i agree with you bro. the gifts operate today as they did in the days of old, and they are for us more so since we are the terminal generation. indeed there are excesses on TBN, even so there is much i have learned there also. Just like if i got to know you better, i'd find some things wrong (as you would about me) but nonetheless i'm after whatever it is God may have for me through you to His glory such that i don't cut you off at the first sign of error. of course i don't buy into some of the crazy things they do on TBN but i bless God all the same for what He has shown me through some of the ones on there.

Quote:
TBN is a big fan of saying well everyone is wrong sometimes...But to have your teachings foreign to Scriptures (99% of the time i.e Paula White day in and out commanding $ and preaching send first fruits to me if you want to be blessed) is sick and leading people astray and converting people to a Christ never seen in the Bible.



Paula White does say some off the wall things, but as it pertained to the firstfruits teaching i heard from her, i sought God and He didn't have me send her the money, He had me put it somewhere else. not for the purpose of gaining anything, i already knew He was going to bless that offering as He saw fit, but it was a matter of obedience. when God has me give to people, i know it will come back, that's a guarantee but the impetus to give is because i know what it is to lack and when God sent someone to tend to that lack, it was like getting a hug from Him so i want to pass that on. again there is a physical benefit of course but the ultimate benefit is when people see the hand of God working through someone to meet a need, God gets the glory. If we give and so seed out of greed, we will always be disappointed. we ought to sow to tend to our brother's need because it is only right, after all, has God not so moved someone to tend to our own needs?

Quote:
I am not taking salvation away from anyone. I am also not heresy who refuses to let the Spirit move. But I know that while seeking the face of God the Holy Spirit clearly lead me away from the teachings seen in the Word Faith movement. I can thank the Lord that He opened my eyes and freed me from the bondage of their false teachings



praise God for that. like i said, i'm no advocate for crazy teachings. the wof movement indeed has some excesses which should be avoided. i don't know a whole lot about their movement, you do though so you know what to avoid. however like i said, there is yet something to be said about saying something which isn't as if it was like telling a dead person to rise from the dead, assuming of course God led you to do so.

i hope that clears things up


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/7 15:33Profile
Dan777
Member



Joined: 2007/2/7
Posts: 21


 Re:

Provost:

I would not be so bold as a call someone a false teacher! Did you ever say something that turned out to be wrong? Chances are you have. Should we label you, cast you aside and call you false because you might have made a mistake?

I have several books by Myles Munroe and a VHS tape. I find his messages very credible. From my vantage point you have a very limited view to what a Christian is and how a Christian is supposed to conduct themselves in this world.

You say that we are servants; but the Word says we ARE SONS! Gal 4:5-6 (written by Paul) "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of SONS. And because ye ARE SONS, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Sons have rights that servants do not have!

Gal 3:13 (written by Paul)says that we ARE redeemed from the curse of the Law, and under the blessing of Abraham. Being under the blessing means that we should NOT be sick, poor, or suffer calamities. That means I can speak to situations, circumstances and sicknesses as a son of God and demand that they change based on the Word of God!

Col 1:13 (written by Paul) says, that we are redeemed from the power of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son. That means the devil has no right to come against us. If he does, then we can rebuke him based on the Word of God.

Rom 8:14-17 (written by Paul) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they ARE the SONS of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage (SERVANTS) again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we ARE the children of God: And if children, then HEIRS; HEIRS of God, and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ..." Servants are NOT made heirs, sons are!

I could go on with more scriptures. These few are just examples of how Myles Munroe does agree with Paul. We do have authority, rights and privileges as CHILDREN OF GOD!

Jesus said that "all authority was given to Him in heaven and earth", but remember we are His body! He is the head, and we are everything from the neck down. If He has authority and we are His body and joint heirs with Him, then we have that same authority!

You need to go back and read the New Testament again with the Kingdom and Sonship in mind. You will see the NT in a whole new light.

Christian do suffer, but it is temptations and persecutions for the cause of Christ that they suffer. For instance, I am to 'suffer it' if I am attacked for preaching or witnessing, But if someone was to attack me for the purpose of robbery or murder, then there is nothing in that bible that says I cannot defend myself or my family!

Christian meekness does NOT mean Christian weakness!

Dan

 2007/2/7 22:05Profile
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re:

Here is the website of his church, I do not endorse anything represented there.
www.bfmmm.com
1Th 5:12 But we beseech you, brethren, to know them that labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
Blessings Greg :-o


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Greg

 2007/2/7 22:26Profile





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