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MrBillPro
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3229
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

Provost wrote:
"man-centered gospel"



Not to hijack this thread but I posted a thread called "Tony Evans" in the Lounge and he says that it's a sin not to attend Church.

I just don't understand if all these Pastors mentality's of the Gospel are for tickling ears or if their mindset has a what best for me attitude.

Peter wrote these words to elders who would have been familiar with sheep and shepherding:

I exhort the elders among you ... shepherd the flock of God ... exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory (1 Peter 5:1-4).

Why can't Pastors get back to doing what the Word "Really" says I just don't understand, maybe it's just a part of the end times that supposed to happen, Tony Evans talks about how it's a sin not to attend Church, well until I can find a Pastor that really knows how to feed the sheep I will just attend my Home Church, guess Mr. Evans will have to answer to the Lord one day for his own ideas of feeding the sheep.

Trying to make folks feel under condemnation for not attending Church is wrong, maybe if Tony would start preaching Gods word and not Tony's word more folks would be happy to attend Church.
:-(


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Mr. Bill

 2007/2/6 11:04Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
The UK is not really a kingdom and hasn't been for centuries. It is a democracy with a constitutional monarchy. That means our queen reigns but does not rule; it is really a pseudo-kingdom.



true, which is why i said kingdom functioned (past tense) as opposed to how the U.K. is now.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/6 12:38Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Hydrated

Quote:
I think this is a case where we need sound judgment and good biblical discernment.



indeed!

Quote:
From what I know, Myles seems to misunderstand the distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven... and the fact that many of the things promised to those in the Kingdom of God are for a later time, after the resurrection of the saints. Remember that the Kingdom of God is not about food and drink, but about righteousness, peace and joy, in the holy ghost.



but we do have righteousness, peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost now right?

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Myles teaches that our place in God's Kingdom gives us rights here on earth to be movers and shakers. But in relation to the here and now, the Kingdom of God is invisible, it is the spiritual place we enter in submission to the King to surrender our will and submit ourselves to His will. We learn servitude... not to reign at this time. The Kingdom resides within the heart and soul of true believers. In the present tense, it is not a Kingdom of Dominant kings, but of humble and meek servants. "The meek SHALL inherit the earth" at a later time, after Christ returns.



i see that part differently. i feel that being servants of God here by default will make us movers and shakers. not in the worldly sense but rather i'm looking at what happened when Christ submitted to God and did what the Father required of Him. the world was changed forever. the apostles and early church as servants of God and His kingdom turned the world upside down and nothing has been the same since...the moving and shaking however was not to benefit themselves or their flesh in the fulfilment of fleshly ambitions but unto the glory of God. that's how we're movers and shakers...the meek servant is the one who gets the most done i think. that testimony of obedience to God is most powerful, look at Christ and His obedience even unto death and how powerful that was/is.

Quote:
Remember that Christ did not come to conquere the Romans, but to conquere sin on our behalf. He says to us, "follow my example..."



true, although Christ did take over the lives of those who gave themselves to Him. i guess the gospel in a way does go forth and conquer since it is in opposition to the enemy.

Quote:
The New Testament model in this Kingdom for the church on earth is to follow the example of Christ and to suffer for his namesake. As Christians, we have not been called to dominate society and claim it all with arrogant decrees, but to take up our cross and proclaim the gospel. I suspect that Myles Monroe teaching caters more to those who want power and authority rather than servitude and suffering.



indeed you're right here that we are called to suffer for Him. however it seems to me that to so suffer has a very profound effect on those around us and an uncanny way of being a part of winning men to Christ. Some people do want power and authority as the world defines it, by force and through force but our power is through yielding. i'm unsure that myles munroe may be catering to people who desire power on earth as the world defines it, but i bless God for showing me what He has through him.

Quote:
From what I've seen and heard, it's about claiming things and taking things and demanding for things to happen in society that will bring about change and righteousness in the world. But changing society and politics is not what Christ came to do. We should be focusing on the Great Commission, not changing the world.



the great commission to me [i][b]is[/b][/i] to change the world by preaching Christ, repentance and righteousness. it may not win someone an election to high office but it has a mighty effect on the world.

Quote:
In relation to our heavenly reward, our objective is not to TAKE dominon of the earth but to look forward to the blessed hope which is the ressurrection of the saints and dwelling with the Lord. It's not until we get to heaven that there will be no more tears, pain, sorrow, etc... We don't use the law to enforce righteousness on society, but as a schoolmaster to show them their need for Christ. We're supposed to be humble servants, not proud possessors. In this church age, Christians are persecuted, put to death, or maligned for their beliefs and lifestyle. The Bible does not support a time when the church will dominate government and society before Christ's return. These claims are in complete opposition to end time prophecy.



i agree that we're not to take dominion of the world as the world exercises dominion, by force but we know that by spreading the gospel, the world is changed. indeed we must strive on as meek servants, doing all that is required of us. i agree that we shall have total dominion over the earth at His return and not before.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/6 12:58Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

I've read a couple of books by Myles Munroe many years ago as well as seen a few videos of his teachings.

While I'm unsure if he has the correct perspective on everything he says, I would be hesitant to label him as a false teacher in the sense of deliberately spreading a false gospel.

A lot of the arguments raised against him depends on individual understanding and interpretation of scripture. I think there are a lot of genuinely saved, "pro-Christ" Christians on Sermon Index, however you'll find that they have a wide spectrum of viewpoints on a lot of biblical topics.

The real question should be "In relation to God's Harvest, is he gathering for Christ, or is he spreading?" If he is gathering, we would do good to leave him in peace and let him get on with his work.

On one of the tapes I saw of Myles Munroe, he was addressing a large pastors conference and preaching on misuse of authority in the church. One of the points raised was that a true leader produced other leaders, not pidgeon-holed followers.

The church leaders who were present were obviously very worried with the impact this would have on their "pidgeons" and showed strong (although indirect) reactions to the message.

They couldn't say anything against him as he had obviously been invited as an international speaker, and I don't think he was aware of what was happening since he was speaking through a translator.

It would seem that God was using him to address the real issues of that group without him even being aware it.

PassingThru

 2007/2/6 14:38Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro provost
thanks for writing back. i asked what i asked so that i could have a better understanding of this man and what his deal is. like i said, there are some things which he has said which have made sense to me and i've learned from.

it seems to me that there are some things which God does without our consent but yet there are others which require our compliance. God didn't ask any of us to let Him allow Christ to die for our sins, but we have to actively repent.

Quote:
Every time I have ever heard Myles speak (10 or so times) the only time Jesus is mentioned is "in Jesus name". He gets loud and excited about whatever worldly issue he is preaching on, but loud and excited is not the annointing (it can be, but an emotional show during a sermon can never be the sign that someone's annointed. The clear exaltation of Christ is the sign of the annointing)

I guess reading what I typed could be very subjective. This is what I would challenge any Christian to do with Dr. Munroe (or any teacher for that fact). Read a Chapter of his books and compare it to Scripture. Would Paul have approved of his writings/teachings? I took the teachings I was taught at my past church (we used to watch Dr. Munroe tapes as well) to the Bible and they never lined up with the totality of Scripture. They could point to a verse or two..but never did it line up with the Truth. And I never heard Myles Munroe say anything that exalted Christ in the same manner that the Apostle Paul was in chains for.



indeed to be excited may be a fleshly response but there are some in which this is not the case. as far as worldly issues go, we can't escape them and they need to be dealt with as God shows us how. it is not right to focus on and deal with them in a worldly way, but on the flip side, we ought not be ignorant of what is going on and how we are affected by it. i agree with you in that we should test all things. i'm unsure Paul would approve, but the question is "does God approve?"

Quote:
2nd... All the prayer questions... A thought that made me think that "God couldn't do anything unless He was commanded" was stupid was this. God is the only one who can justly judge. God is the one who can pour out wrath. God is also the one who holds the entire order of the world. So here's the thought...If God needs to be commanded then someone needed to command God to produce Hurrican Katrina. If Katrina was a human's idea that person would be sick! God in no way needs to be commanded. This cannot be found in the Bible and can be found nowhere in the history of the church. Thanx Ironman for listening and God Bless



i think of elijah and how he told ahab that there would be no rain except at his word.it didn't rain. indeed God judges rightly but if one walks closely to Him, does one not also see rightly as God does? was elijah sick or was he one who knew God intimately enough to know what God intended to do and call it forth as God led him?


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/6 14:39Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

See the Elijah issue is something that always bothered me. I would always be told that we have to power to not make it rain. Yet, when you look at the situation...Elijah almost died due to lack of water. The fact that it didn't rain was not just on the power of his prayer. Elijah had a dependence that the Lord would carry him until His appropriate time for rain.
I see that as a problem with Dr. Munroes teaching. Too often the insight is on what is the power of your faith...and that's wrong...the power we have is only on the amount we depend on the One who holds all power.
I know I may sound like a negative guy. I have been told by many.."we have to let so and so preach this or that I mean look he is getting converts"(or somethin like that) My issue is that if they are not preaching the doctrine and theology clearly laid down in Scripture is the convert true. I saw Jesse Duplantis have an alter call that brought hundreds. His message was a ridiculous mockery of the pulpit followed by a freak show that could be found nowhere in Scripture. Now I pray that those people came into the Glorious kingdom of God, but I fear that many were just reacting to an outpour of emotion.
I am a young Christian and I know I have a future of being wrong. But I am a young Christian who refuses to listen to anyone (My Pastor included) unless they line up with the totality of Scripture. I know that on every point we may not agree, but that's okay as long as the theology preached lines up with the message the Holy Spirit laid down in the Bible. This I know for sure that if I was to hold up the messages of Myles Munroe and held it next to the Bible they would look like they came from two different books.
As far as God approving of Dr. Munroe. God will not stand for anyone who preaches something foreign to the Bible in Jesus' name.

Thanx again for the listening
Lots of Love
Thom

 2007/2/6 15:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
bro provost
thanks for writing back. i asked what i asked so that i could have a better understanding of this man and what his deal is. like i said, there are some things which he has said which have made sense to me and i've learned from.

it seems to me that there are some things which God does without our consent but yet there are others which require our compliance. God didn't ask any of us to let Him allow Christ to die for our sins, but we have to actively repent.

Quote:
Every time I have ever heard Myles speak (10 or so times) the only time Jesus is mentioned is "in Jesus name". He gets loud and excited about whatever worldly issue he is preaching on, but loud and excited is not the annointing (it can be, but an emotional show during a sermon can never be the sign that someone's annointed. The clear exaltation of Christ is the sign of the annointing)

I guess reading what I typed could be very subjective. This is what I would challenge any Christian to do with Dr. Munroe (or any teacher for that fact). Read a Chapter of his books and compare it to Scripture. Would Paul have approved of his writings/teachings? I took the teachings I was taught at my past church (we used to watch Dr. Munroe tapes as well) to the Bible and they never lined up with the totality of Scripture. They could point to a verse or two..but never did it line up with the Truth. And I never heard Myles Munroe say anything that exalted Christ in the same manner that the Apostle Paul was in chains for.



indeed to be excited may be a fleshly response but there are some in which this is not the case. as far as worldly issues go, we can't escape them and they need to be dealt with as God shows us how. it is not right to focus on and deal with them in a worldly way, but on the flip side, we ought not be ignorant of what is going on and how we are affected by it. i agree with you in that we should test all things. i'm unsure Paul would approve, but the question is "does God approve?"

Quote:
2nd... All the prayer questions... A thought that made me think that "God couldn't do anything unless He was commanded" was stupid was this. God is the only one who can justly judge. God is the one who can pour out wrath. God is also the one who holds the entire order of the world. So here's the thought...If God needs to be commanded then someone needed to command God to produce Hurrican Katrina. If Katrina was a human's idea that person would be sick! God in no way needs to be commanded. This cannot be found in the Bible and can be found nowhere in the history of the church. Thanx Ironman for listening and God Bless



i think of elijah and how he told ahab that there would be no rain except at his word.it didn't rain. indeed God judges rightly but if one walks closely to Him, does one not also see rightly as God does? was elijah sick or was he one who knew God intimately enough to know what God intended to do and call it forth as God led him?


[b][color=000099]Good for you Bro.! It took me many years of being a Christian before I could have the courage to question leaders who I respected - even if they said unBiblical things.

Never heard of this man before, but he sounds like many others of similar type, that I fear are "wolves in sheep's clothing", ravaging the flock

Jeannette[/color][/b]

 2007/2/6 16:14
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 reasoning and growing together

bro Thom

Quote:
See the Elijah issue is something that always bothered me. I would always be told that we have to power to not make it rain. Yet, when you look at the situation...Elijah almost died due to lack of water. The fact that it didn't rain was not just on the power of his prayer. Elijah had a dependence that the Lord would carry him until His appropriate time for rain.



the Elijah issue doesn't bother me in the least. Elijah knew God well enough to know what sort of retribution was coming and he knew His part in bringing that through. He told ahab about it. it didn't rain for 2 yrs was it? i wouldn't say Elijah almost died, the word doesn't say anything other than our Lord sent ravens to feed him and he drank out of the brook until it almost ran dry.

Quote:
I see that as a problem with Dr. Munroes teaching. Too often the insight is on what is the power of your faith...and that's wrong...the power we have is only on the amount we depend on the One who holds all power.



if the faith he is talking about is that same faith of Christ which He had in the Father, then i'm all in. Christ depended on the Father who had all power and the Father sustained Him, if we have the same Faith what could we not achieve?

Quote:
I know I may sound like a negative guy. I have been told by many.."we have to let so and so preach this or that I mean look he is getting converts"(or somethin like that) My issue is that if they are not preaching the doctrine and theology clearly laid down in Scripture is the convert true. I saw Jesse Duplantis have an alter call that brought hundreds. His message was a ridiculous mockery of the pulpit followed by a freak show that could be found nowhere in Scripture. Now I pray that those people came into the Glorious kingdom of God, but I fear that many were just reacting to an outpour of emotion.



on the one hand, we ought to correct false teaching, no doubt. on the flip side, God seems not to be hindered by it. sometimes the preacher may be off, by if Holy Spirit takes hold of someone, He's not letting go. like Paul said, some preach to get a name for themselves and other things but he rejoiced that Christ was preached anyway. Paul knew the power of that name Jesus Christ.the first place i heard about christ was in the catholic church. there are all sorts of warped doctrines in it but God was not hindered in His effort to bring me to salvation. ultimately, each man is to eck out his own salvation with fear and trembling like Paul said.

Quote:
I am a young Christian and I know I have a future of being wrong. But I am a young Christian who refuses to listen to anyone (My Pastor included) unless they line up with the totality of Scripture. I know that on every point we may not agree, but that's okay as long as the theology preached lines up with the message the Holy Spirit laid down in the Bible. This I know for sure that if I was to hold up the messages of Myles Munroe and held it next to the Bible they would look like they came from two different books.



and being a young christian i'm sure you also understand that you may not have the corner on the meaning of all scripture and in some things you may be wrong. as a result you may misunderstand the things which some are saying. this is why i love S.I. in the beauty of this fellowship, God can teach us through eachother and polish us into shining diamonds from the lumps of coal we are.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/2/6 20:25Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re: reasoning and growing together

3 quick responses
1. The movement Myles Munroe is in has warped the kind of faith Christ had. When your hear him talk about force faith, it's way off, and to not see that is way off.
2. God can use any kind of teaching to get the Holy Spirist in. I went to a nutso church, but they got me into the Bible. Still God does have a problem with people distoring His Word. Even if they get a few converts God will hold them accountable for perverting His Word.
3. I know I do not know everything, but like I said I know that if I held a Bible up to his teachings I would not be able to tell where Myles Munroe received his revelation. Where then did he get his revelations? That was an issue I pondered as I watched his teachings at old studies. I was always told he had deeper revelation that others ever had, but I think that's weird as well (the mormons have a deeper revelation too).
Help me polish up I know I need it. But I only want to listen to people who truly are searching the face of Christ(not saying your not IRONMAN you have been making me think I like that). I get nervous when people start commanding God for passing things (money, increas, etc), and preach subjects that take the focus off Christ and on to what you can force your faith to do.
In Him
Thom

 2007/2/7 9:48Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

I have never heard of this Munroe guy. What I have heard of is the word of faith movement. The teachings from this crowd are so far off that they are anathema to me. The scriptures clearly warn against false teachers, does it not follow then that not all teaching is sound? It falls on us to have discernment then of what is true and what is false. This discernment can only come through the Holy Spirit. Nothing any of us here can say will convince those who don't see the errors of word of faith doctrine of those errors. For anyone who does not understand why I am condemning this false teaching, I suggest only that you get on your face before the Lord and ask Him to lead you into all truth.

Benny Hinn is part of this word of faith movement, and I distrust anyone who appears along side him on his show, for they are, by their appearence, standing with him and his false doctrine.

If anyone wants to understand more regarding the erroneous teachings of Benny Hinn and his ilk, may I suggest reading Christianity in Crisis.

I know how black and white my statements have been. Scripture states that we must speak the truth...in love. Hopefully I have the correct motives in writing these words. I do not write to condemn anyone here, but out of a true concern for your walk with our Precious Lord and Savior.

In His Love

Doug

edit:spelling
edit addition: A little leaven leavens the whole loaf.


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Doug Fussell

 2007/2/7 10:39Profile





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