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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Acts 27 - Storm at Sea question

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I am sorry Robert but I respectfully disagree with your statement.

Hebrews 10:38-39 speak of two types of people who profess faith:
- Those who are genuine
- Those who are false

Notice Paul makes the statement, 'But we are not like them'. This signifies that we belong to God and cannot draw back.



I am anxious to hear how you make this jibe with:

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11:20-22)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/2 13:55Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This also agrees with 1 John 2:19-20,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge."



I understand what you are saying here. The trouble is -is that we are living in real time and don't have the advantage of knowing who is and who is not written in the Lambs Book of Life. So the warnings repeated over and over in the New Testament are valid for me right here and right now because I have not yet heard "Well done thou good and faithful servant." That is a future event. Until that day I will continue to give all diligence to make my calling and election sure- working out my own salvation with fear and trembling.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/2 13:58Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If all of God's promises are based upon me, then may God have mercy on my soul because I fail everyday. What assurance and hope would I have? But praise be to God for He holds me and seats me in the Heavenly places with Christ.



I think you are carrying what has been said too far. I don't believe in hair trigger damnation. I believe there is a certain place a person can go in which either it becomes evident that they were never saved to begin with or they have fallen from grace. Our justification is not fragile. That is Finney's Gov't of God type assurance. That I can never believe.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/2 14:02Profile
murdog
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Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Robert and Jay,

All of his promises are yes and amen in Jesus. That being said, we have to respond to them appropriately. Robert, I appreciate how you have explained your points thus far. It really makes a difference by reading the whole story or just taking one piece out. Scripture explains scripture.

I can see what you are saying Jay about Hebrews 13:15, but on the same hand if we leave him or forsake him. Do you think at the end of it all, we would be invited into heaven, having not done the master's will or abiding in Him continually?

Murray


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Murray Beninger

 2007/2/2 14:11Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

RobertW wrote:

Quote:
I am anxious to hear how you make this jibe with Romans 11:20-22



These verses do not say that it is possible for individuals to lose their faith. What it does state is that Gentiles should not boast over the Jews because we are recipients of God's grace and they are experiencing a partial hardening. We are told that this partial hardening will last until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then the Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
I understand what you are saying here. The trouble is -is that we are living in real time and don't have the advantage of knowing who is and who is not written in the Lambs Book of Life. So the warnings repeated over and over in the New Testament are valid for me right here and right now because I have not yet heard "Well done thou good and faithful servant." That is a future event. Until that day I will continue to give all diligence to make my calling and election sure- working out my own salvation with fear and trembling.



I agree. We do not know who is or is not a true child of God. I also agree that the warnings in scripture are to be applied to all people who profess faith in Christ. Where we disagree is this: "Can a true Child of God fall away from grace?" I maintain that one cannot and I believe you are saying it is possible. (Please correct me if I am wrong in your view.)
I am not advocating that if a person makes a profession of faith then they can do what they want without consequence. I am advocating that those who fall away from faith fall away because they were not truly born again in the first place.

RobertW wrote:
Quote:
I think you are carrying what has been said too far. I don't believe in hair trigger damnation. I believe there is a certain place a person can go in which either it becomes evident that they were never saved to begin with or they have fallen from grace. Our justification is not fragile. That is Finney's Gov't of God type assurance. That I can never believe.



I agree with what you said except the part 'or they have fallen from grace'. I do not believe it is possible according to scripture to fall from grace. I see admonitions to remain faithful, but I also see assurances that God will keep and continue His good work in Christians.

murdog wrote:
Quote:
I can see what you are saying Jay about Hebrews 13:15, but on the same hand if we leave him or forsake him. Do you think at the end of it all, we would be invited into heaven, having not done the master's will or abiding in Him continually?



I do not believe that a born again, regenerate person can ever forsake Christ. Yes, we will sin and screw up royally, but we will always be brought back into repentance. God will come after us and keep on close to Him because we are His children and we are heirs.

 2007/2/2 14:38Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

As an aside.

Robert and others I want to thank you for this dialog. It has been very respectful and edifying to me and I hope to you as well.

Thank you.

 2007/2/2 14:39Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Jay,

Forgive my density, but what does "As an aside" mean?

Murray


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Murray Beninger

 2007/2/2 14:44Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I could have probably used a better term.

I meant it as a comment from me that is not directly connected to the flow of discussion.

I could have done without it that sentence now that I look back or at least but some parenthesis around it.

 2007/2/2 14:49Profile
murdog
Member



Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario

 Re:

Jay,

Thanks for the clarification! By the way, I have found this discussion most educational. You guys both have humble, teachable attitudes, and it shows. :-)

Murray


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Murray Beninger

 2007/2/2 14:54Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I am not advocating that if a person makes a profession of faith then they can do what they want without consequence. I am advocating that those who fall away from faith fall away because they were not truly born again in the first place.



I could also make that argument and be in agreement, but there are still some anomalies to this. Consider another familiar passage from Hebrews:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. or the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

If they have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost then they once had the earnest of their inheritance (Ephesians 1). They did not merely sin, but they 'fell away'. This is serious stuff, no doubt.

Another consideration are the passages in which Paul said that "they that commit such things shall not inherit eternal life." Galatians 5 comes to mind among others. If one practices these sins then we have a decision to make; because their current destiny is apart from inheritance of the Kingdom. Were they never saved if they were to die in that condition? This is not a new saying for Paul because he says in Gal. 5;21 that he had told the people this before. He has made it clear to them. So are we willing to suggest that if a person 'commits such things' that they were never truly saved? Just asking. No harm...



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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/2 14:58Profile





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