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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Acts 27 - Storm at Sea question

I have a question concerning Paul's situation in Acts 27. I am sure most of you are familiar with this story of Paul's trip to Rome. It turns out that a violent storm came and caused the ship to wreck at an island.

I have included certain verses that directly pertain to the following question, but please consult the entire chapter in case you wish. (I do not want to be accused of taking anything out of context.) ;-)

In Acts 27:22 Paul said

Quote:
Yet now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship.


In Acts 27:24 Paul tells them what an angel of God told him earlier
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'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.'


In Acts 27:30 we see that there were sailors seeking to escape from the ship. Paul tells them
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"Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved."



Acts 27:32 tells us that the soldiers did as Paul suggested.
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Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship's boat and let it go.



Then in Acts 27:34 Paul reiterates
Quote:
for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you."



Question: In light verses 22, 24, and 34, was the possible that the men could have gotten into that boat and died?

 2007/2/1 11:45Profile
enid
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Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2662
Nottingham, England

 Re: Acts 27 - Storm at Sea question

Most definitely.

 2007/2/1 12:22Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Most definitely.



Please explain.

 2007/2/1 13:24Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Acts 27 - Storm at Sea question

Quote:
Question: In light verses 22, 24, and 34, was the possible that the men could have gotten into that boat and died?



The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

The story is really one of having disobeyed the voice of God. Paul was the oracle on board the ship. When he spoke- it was as if God was speaking and when he warned them not to sail- it was as if they had disobeyed God. What was their plight? Fear and darkness. Trouble and danger. They could not as much as see their hand in front of their face. They were carried along they knew not where. This is what happens when men disobey God. There is no way to navigate- they are simply along for the ride and at the mercy of God. Yet, God in His great mercy after so long a time may well speak again. This is the God of the 'second chance'. This is what happened on this ship. And as Paul told them... they should have listened the first time. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/1 16:42Profile
DoulosQuinn
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Joined: 2006/7/6
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 I wonder if this applies to the GNN upturning?

I wrote some posts in a haughty spirit, and the moderator left some links to sermons about authority, and being under authority, so when I heard them they spoke of GOD is the authority, that implying that resisting men in submission (whether I am aware or not) is amout to kicking back at GOD.

I think we are of no theat to GOD's purposes. like chickens running backwards, cluking all the way.

 2007/2/1 16:49Profile
JoeA
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Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois

 Re:

Quote:
The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.



Powerful spiritual implications here that i hadn't noticed before.


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Joe Auvil

 2007/2/2 1:26Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.



This may be implied, but it is not explicit.

God said:

Quote:
Acts 27:22, "Yet now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship."



When the storm began, God made a promise to Paul. There will be no loss of life among you. No one who was on the ship at that time would die. Only the ship would be destroyed. God doesn't place any condition in this statement.

Quote:
Acts 27:24, "'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.'"



God has granted you all those who sail with you. This is not all those who stay on the ship, but this is all those who are on the ship at that time.

Quote:
Acts 27:34, "for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you."



This statement was made after the men did not get into the boat but it reinforces the earlier promise God made to Paul, 'there will be no loss of life among you.'

I know that the men did desire to get in the boat, but they did not get into the boat. Why? Because God saw to it that they did not die because His word was on the line.

God promised that none would die, if some would have died then wouldn't that make God a liar? This is why I saw that the men could not have gotten into that boat.

This is an amazing example of how God's sovereign will and man's free will coexist. The men made a free-will choice not to get into the boat, but it was because God had willed for them not to get into the boat.

 2007/2/2 9:39Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
[u]When the storm began[/u], God made a promise to Paul. There will be no loss of life among you. No one who was on the ship at that time would die. Only the ship would be destroyed. God doesn't place any condition in this statement.



Two observations here. First, actually the ship had been having difficulty and was in some measure of danger since before they even arrived at the Fair Havens. Paul warns them not to leave as he had 'perceived' the danger of going on. The set sail and fell almost immediately into a storm and the ship was out of control. they were at least three days in a severe storm before the angel appeared.

My second observation is that Paul did not tell the people the full message. He gave to them the promise first. Perhaps he did not feel the need to share the condition until it became evident that the folk were about to break that condition? this would make it a 'then-if' conditional promise. Why he did not give the full details before is unclear, but once the condition is made known it has to be taken into account:

Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, 'If these do not remain in the ship -- ye are not able to be saved;' (Acts 28:31 YLT)

This is why it is important to 'keep reading' the word of God. Folk want often to stop at the promise and hold onto it for dear life and ignore the plainly revealed conditions of the promises. No matter at what point in the dialogue they are told- once they are told they have to be taken into account. If those men had dropped the life boat and gotten into it- the ships captian would have been lost. That's my plain reading of the text. Pointing to the original promise, "But Paul, you said earlier we would all be saved..." Paul did not tell them the promise was unconditional. To assume this is to greatly err. He did not lie to the men. He revealed the information on a need to know basis. And when they needed to know- he told them and not before then.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/2 11:03Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This may be implied, but it is not explicit.


All promises are conditional at some level. [color=0000ff]“The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.” (Jer 18:7-10 NKJV)[/color]This is true for nations and individuals.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/2/2 11:09Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I know that the men did desire to get in the boat, but they did not get into the boat. Why? Because God saw to it that they did not die because His word was on the line.



I don't agree with this. God saw to it that this account was included into the record of this voyage as a great lesson to us. I think it is worth noting how so much space is spent on it when other stories are just summarized.

Truly if God was going to force the men to do what He wanted then there is no reason to give a warning to the leaders. It is a mute point. It makes the whole dialogue into pretense. They leaders had a decision to make. They could take seriously what Paul said- or not. Many a man has disregarded God's counsel and perished. These men would not have been the first or the last.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/2/2 11:17Profile





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