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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Your present response also clarified your position. You said "it would only be done in a crash / survival time." You did not mention this part of your argument in your previous posts; so it sounded like you are advocating that eating human flesh is alright at all times, as long as it is obtained from deceased persons dying of natural causes. I am guessing that is what upset RobertW. If you check his first response, his position is similar in that he did allow for this to be done in extreme conditions.

I'm sorry that you have both got the wrong stick of the end ;-), but if you look at my very first post you can see where I was coming from:

"In the film "Alive" the passengers that survived had to eat the dead passengers to survive.

Is this wrong?"


Even though this case is rather bizarre, I think it's beneficial in that it forces us to re-think what Christian ethics is. Ethical situations are complex; so the common "Bible is an ethical code book" is not adequate. I also think we must allow room for the Spirit to guide us in muddy situations.

I totally agree, and I'm not saying that eating human flesh is acceptable, I'm just wanted to know what the bible said about it.


Just curious, are you a vegetarian for religious reasons?

From the age of about 2 I have never been a normal person when it came to eating.
I didn't eat (and still don't) any vegetables except potatoes and sweetcorn, I very rarely ate meat and if I did it was always sausage rolls!
From the age of about 14 I decided to become a vegetarian (it wasn't hard because I didn't eat much meat anyway!), I thought at the time it was wrong to eat animals.
Some time after this I realised that it wasn't wrong to eat animals because Jesus ate fish (or at least he helped Simon catch fish) and because since Noah, man was allowed to eat meat.
However I still don't eat meat now and the reason is complicated, here are a few reasons:

1. I don't need to eat meat to survive (yet ;-) )
2. I don't like the way animals are treated (I am a hypocrite in this respect because I wear leather and eat eggs etc.)
3. I generally don't like meat

I have nothing against people eating meat however, my wife eats meat and I will not discourage my children (God-willing, when they are born) from eating meat either.

I do have one bone to pick though, when some people say "God created animals for us to eat", I disagree, from what I gather from Genesis 2, God created animals to have some sort of fellowship with man, however none of them were good enough, this is why God created Eve out of Adam.

Please tell me if you disagree.


One more thing, I'm not trying to cause trouble, but can you answer my question from my previous post:


Agent001, I shall speak the truth in love: I do find a lack of grace and respect in some of your postings.

Please tell me which postings you find this in.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/3/9 11:06Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Nasher:

Quote:
I totally agree, and I'm not saying that eating human flesh is acceptable, I'm just wanted to know what the bible said about it.

The discussion would not have been so heated if you had stated this more explicitly at the beginning. But it wouldn't have been this interesting though. *wink*

We better not have dinner together. You know about Chinese--many animals that Westerners don't eat are delicacies on our dining table. *smile*

As for the postings, it's the general tone in your responses to RobertW. I could have misunderstood though.


_________________
Sam

 2004/3/10 11:34Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Hi Agent001, I think is was explicit at the start but people went off course and I should have spotted that!


If the tone of my responses to RobertW changed then it may of been from this comment he made:

The fact that this is even being debated strikes me as a sure sign of depravity the likes of which are paralleled only by having to defend the sanctity of marriage as being only between a male and female.

To me it seemed like he was accusing me of being depraved!


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/3/10 11:53Profile
Zapthycat
Member



Joined: 2003/8/5
Posts: 75
Livermore, CA

 Re:

Wow, what a lively debate!

I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Now, ***I KNOW THAT THIS SCRIPTURE DOES NOT PERTAIN TO CANNIBALISM*** But I'm going to quote it anyway. So please, don't rant about how the scripture has nothing to do with cannibalism:

John 6:56 - He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Now, this is Jesus talking. He is talking about being one with him. He is talking about communion. He is talking about his spirit, and eternal life... these things. But I thought it a relevant scripture to bring to you.

I will say this: the practice of eating the flesh of a human being in any situation is unappealing, disgusting and utterly revolting. Sadly, there are some depraved peoples that don't have a problem with it.

However... would you do it, in a survival situation? When a plane crashes in the mountains with nothing but snow around you, or when the Donners are stuck in the high Sierra's with no supplies around... if you were there, what would you do? This isn't about killing another human, this is about taking a human who has died from other reasons (an plane crash for instance) and cutting up his frozen flesh and eating it. I will note that I don't know of anyone in either group (Donner or Alive), no matter what the moral or ethical problems they had with it, that refused and starved to death. On the other hand, I don't think there was anyone in either group that was a die hard evangelical christian. There were many that were christians, and I remember the reference one man made to justify it to another man in Alive, he said "___, the spirit is not in the body, it has left the body". I truly see my flesh as simply flesh, it's made of atoms and molecules the same basic way as birds and beasts of the field. It *IS* different, however, for 1 Corinthians 15:39 says:
"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds".

What am I trying to say? That under survival, non-murder situations, it may very well be acceptable, an alternative to a gruesome death of starvation. I read the "Donner" story and accounts, and I do remember that in the record of the happenings, that it said that each member of the Donner Party knew what they had done, and went on to live completely normal lives, just wanting to forget that such an episode had ever happened. This is understandible, there is nothing physically wrong with you if you are forced to eat such in a survival situation, whether it's spiritually wrong.... well, that's what we're debating here. My personal take is "No". It's not wrong I don't believe. It's just flesh. Did you ever hear of the (True) story of that butcher in Britain that killed people and served them up in a diner...? Was there anything wrong with the people that ate there? No!

If I were put in a place like that, I would react the same as anyone else that actually did go through that... I would want to forget about it and get on with my life as best as I could. These people are not vampires or abominations, they are regular people pushed to do something horrible and gruesome for the sake of survival. Maybe there is something spiritually wrong with them, maybe RobertW is right in saying that it's the law of God and it's written on your heart. But if so, maybe it's written on HIS heart (I do believe there are personal convictions that God lays on the heart of people that they have no right to condemn everyone on).

As for me, I don't know what I would do in that situation (does any of us truly know...?) But I feel as if the situation is that incredibly desperate, it just might be something that may have to be done. Then again, maybe I'd feel a conviction against it then. Either way, I think God would lead me to do what which is right (if he even cares...!) and if I made the wrong choice, I believe he would have grace to forgive me.

This is quite a disgusting thread...
:-P


_________________
J. Wilson

 2004/3/14 5:29Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hey Zap, long time no hear brother!
Great reply!

Quote:
Now, ***I KNOW THAT THIS SCRIPTURE DOES NOT PERTAIN TO CANNIBALISM*** But I'm going to quote it anyway. So please, don't rant about how the scripture has nothing to do with cannibalism:



Actually the hearers thought so...

Joh 6:60 When many of his disciples heard this, they said, "This is a difficult statement. Who can accept it?"

Joh 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Does this offend you?

Joh 6:66 As a result, many of his disciples turned back and no longer associated with him.

From Gills Exposition:


when they had heard this; that his flesh and blood were truly and really meat and drink, and that none had life in them, or should have eternal life, but such as eat and drink the same:

said, this is an hard saying; or it is to be objected to; so קשיא, "an hard thing", the word here used in the Syriac version, and קשה הוא עלי, "it is to me a hard thing", are phrases used to express an objection in the Talmudic writings, where they are often met with: or it is difficult to be understood and received; so הדבר הקשה, "an hard saying", or "an hard cause", is a cause difficult to be tried and determined, Exo_18:26, and is used of that which seems incredible and absurd, and is surprising and unaccountable

is it a difficult thing with you? does it seem absurd to you? or are you surprised at it? anything difficult, or which seems irreconcilable, is so called: so the slaying the passover between the two evenings is called by Aben Ezra, in Exo_12:6, מלה קשה, "an hard saying". In like sense the phrase is used here; and the allusion may be to food that is hard of digestion, since Christ had been speaking of himself under the metaphors of bread and meat. As some of the doctrines of Christ are comparable to milk, which is easy of digestion; others are like to strong meat, which belongs to those of full age, and cannot be digested by children, by babes in Christ, and much less be received, ate, and digested, with ease and pleasure, by carnal minds; who therefore say, as these Capernaites did,

who can hear it? this saying, or doctrine, concerning eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ; or "him" Christ, who delivered this doctrine: such preaching, and such a preacher, are intolerable; there is no hearing, nor bearing them: hence we afterwards read, that these withdrew from the ministry of Christ, Joh_6:66.

(z) Misn. Nidda, c. 8, sect. 3.

Pretty easy from a comfy chair to say 'I wouldn't' as I believe I did earlier. If I had any say in it would prefer that they kill me and then...
Quote:
This is quite a disgusting thread...


No doubt ;-)

Can say this much, not to shy around here...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/3/14 12:35Profile
Zapthycat
Member



Joined: 2003/8/5
Posts: 75
Livermore, CA

 Re:

Hey Crsschk :)

Yeah I've been gone for a little while, after I submitted that "should I get married" thread, I promptly decided that I loved her and I thought I should get engaged, so a lot of my time's been spent with her... wonderful praying woman.

Anyways, I know that the "Jews" of that day also had issues, as even before my quote, they "strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (v52). It is indeed a sickening and disgusting thread, but someone brought it up and wanted to know people's takes on it...

I may say that I would rather them eat me first.... if I died. If it came down to killing, the whole issue is changed. The fact with the Donner party and the "Alive" crew is that no one had to kill anyone else, they were already dead.

The Apostles commandments in Acts Ch 15 and 21 are in reference to normal times, so I don't even think that God would care if the meal was "strangled" or what... maybe that's getting a bit too disgusting.

I guess for me, I would have to #1 be IN that situation before I could decide, and I'd have to weigh a number of other factors... like, is there a possibility that I might get rescued? How long? Is there anything else halfway edible around?

I read a humorous story (fake) about this group trapped in an elevator that, after 20 minutes, consumed one of their number before being rescued. I thought it was mildly humorous (just had to share it with you, the title was "In retrospect, we may have resorted to cannibalism a bit early").

But I know the "Alive" group had this dilemna: They tried hiking out but could not because they were so weak. It had been weeks and weeks, and they were given up for dead, yet they were alive. They had to get word out, so what could they do? They decided to get strength to cross the mountains, they would need energy and protein. So they did the unthinkable.

To throw another wrench into the works... if they hadn't of done this, would it be considered suicide, if they gave up? Would they be judged for *NOT* eating...?

Just a thought...


_________________
J. Wilson

 2004/3/14 15:58Profile





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