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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Again

Quote:
Also, you would know that he had completely surrendered acting as a means of earning his living, until the Lord gave him that word to write the play.



Well, let me just say that the phrase, "I have received________from the Lord" has become somewhat of an expediency today, and I think too many of us just indiscriminately accept these testimonies as something genuinely from the heart of God, when two factors are dubiously missing that, if they were present, would instantly quell all speculation and verify their alleged assertion, namely: 1. the engendering of holiness in the person claiming to have heard from God, and, 2. the provocation [i]to[/i] holiness by those who come in contact with the professed vision.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/7 17:42Profile









 Re: after reading your post Paul

You know the word says;

Quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Has anyone ever gave thanks for the besetting sin in thier lives?
Well I did, and I shall never forget the outcome. The LORD was not displeased, but it made the devil mad. Instead of self pity, praise. I said, "Thank you LORD for such and such", the more I praised the LORD over it the better I felt. I wanted to be as far away from that sin as possible. I took that verse to it's literal degree, "EVERY THING".

I guarantee you that if you praise Him before you go to the theatre, you won't even go thru the door, you will end up some place else worshipping your creator. I would, I would just think that I don't want to forfeit the presense of God over Superman or Spider-man.

But to each his own. I try not to watch any movies. I may watch childrens movies and even they can be tricky. Any sexual suggestions whether hetro or homo, I can't stand it. It takes sometime to work that out of the mind.

Try Praying and Fasting sometime after giving yourself to movies, I guarantee you that it will be bothersome to you in your prayer time as the enemy of your soul bombards you with movies and shows that you havne't seen in years being projected in your mind. It took much prayer to get the antichrist spirit of the star trek shows out my head. Many years ago, the LORD told me to stop watching the Next Generation because it carries an antichrist message, "We don't need God". I stopped for awhile and than started again. But finally stopped altogether.

When that Superman movie came out recently, I rented it. But it bothered me afterwards, there is something about that movie that isn't right. I won't watch it again. In fact I really don't want to watch another film again. God is Holy, and TO ME, I don't want anything to get in the way of me getting close to Him.

Regarding Master and Commander movie, I enjoyed it. It a man's movie.

To each his own.

 2007/2/7 20:37









 again and again

Paul, sister Dorcas and brother Compton both have communicated with me either in person and/or over the phone.

I have shared with them my personal testimony in my walk with Messiah, with God. I have done this, because it felt right to do so, meaning I could share, transparently, with them, with no fear of rebuke, censure,condemnation or judgement. That is love, and it is love borne solely of Messiah, meaning in the secular world, these two souls, these two people would be considered "strangers", but to me were brethern, because we shared this Most Holy Faith.

You don't know me. You don't know my heart, you don't know my relationship with Jesus Messiah, and you don't know the gifting He has given me, nor are you aware of how He might use me for His Glory.

But I have a feeling you are a man who is deathly afraid of saying two three word sentences,and they are:

"I don't know."

or

"I was wrong."

maybe I'm wrong in that assessment of you, maybe.

But two brethern who know me, testify, to what I was trying to say, and I see you write these words:

Quote:
I think too many of us just indiscriminately accept these testimonies as something genuinely from the heart of God, when two factors are dubiously missing that, if they were present, would instantly quell all speculation and verify their alleged assertion, namely: 1. the engendering of holiness in the person claiming to have heard from God, and, 2. the provocation to holiness by those who come in contact with the professed vision.




"alleged assertion"

and all I can do is sigh, not that I think you canted that towards me, but all I can do is sigh.

Holiness. in a cracked clay vessel.

Holiness. to be holy.

and the first bit of Scripture, that comes to my heart is when those two men prayed, one beat his breast, face heavenward, and the other couldnt even look up, and just begged God for mercy.

But I am truly glad that you and MC are having a nice chat on Bach, I mean that.

neil

 2007/2/7 21:29
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: and yet again

Neil,

I have no problem admitting "I am wrong", and I have no problem saying "I don't know." In fact, I [i]love[/i] saying these things! I've said them many times before on SI, and in the pulpit even. It exonorates me and gives me freedom. But in all fairness, I really can't see how these statements apply to this discussion; I still don't believe "acting" qualifies as a calling, but it's my understanding of "calling" now that has come into question. These things are still being sorted out.

I've never said that God [i]didn't[/i] talk to you or tell you to write a play. Honestly, you've gotten so defensive that the focal point of this discussion is almost totally muddled. All I wanted to do is rightly [i]challenge[/i] things like this, and since your play came to be mentioned, I used it as an example. Neil, hear this admonition, please. If you really heard from God (and I believe you did), why get so defensive and angry and exasperated if someone who doesn't know you merely enquires? Note that not anywhere in my previous posts did I allude to your play not being from God. I only questioned the whole "actor/calling" thing. And I still do.

Brother, I trust you haven't likened me to a proud pharisee as your closing statements may indicate. I rather pray that I have misconstrued your thoughts, as you have grossly misconstrued mine.

Let's stop this, please! Dicussing religious symbolism in Bach's music is so much more edifying!

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/7 22:13Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
But men ablaze for Jesus Christ are normally "called" to the mission fields, and not to movie studios or playhouses.



What better mission field than the playhouses!!!

May I share a bit about my own experiences? I have been a missionary. And I have also worked in playhouses (as a musician). There is absolutely no difference between sinners in the “mission field” and sinners in the playhouses! They all need Christ, and they need to see real Christians moving among them. Both areas are mission fields. And God sometimes calls you to trample on the same dirty sod where they walk on.

Now I realize that some of the stuff that goes on in playhouses is appalling, and if you are sensitive in spirit, you will know what to do about it. I was once asked to be the music director for a play. It had a few shady spots that I was concerned about. So I told the director (also the script writer) that he had an important influence on society as a playwrite. I told him that his role was to present society with a better alternative than the trash people typically see. I also told him that if he wanted the families and relatives of these actors to come and see the play, he would have to delete certain parts. He listened to me and made all the changes I recommended. We had a packed house every night. The rumor went out that this was a great show! (In the past that theatre had a reputation for putting out trash, and respectable people stayed away.)

My calling is related to my relationship with Jesus. I am called to belong to Jesus and to radiate his nature wherever I am – whether among sinners on a foreign land under a Christian organization, working among sinners in playhouses, or playing hymns at church.

Anyone who thinks that there is a greater risk of straying from God in playhouses than in mission organizations has not seen “behind the scenes” . It doesn’t matter what you do – any work can become more important to you than God – be it pastoring, painting, drawing, acting, singing, hammering, leading Bible clubs…

One more story: I know a farmer who really he was a pastor at heart. His church had no use for him. He wasn’t into the role-thing there. But he did more mentoring – via emails, chats, passing articles, etc than a lot of pastors ever get to do in years.
Sometimes you have more freedom to serve God when you aren’t hitched to any Christian organization.


Diane





_________________
Diane

 2007/2/7 22:48Profile









 of course

Paul,
it wasnt my play that got me choffed, or even that you doubt my calling or my gifting, thats between me and God, do you really think I care what another man has to say to me about my relationship with Jesus?

no that wasnt it. It was how you just teed off on Russell Crowe and railed about a movie you havent even SEEN, and you did it without a shred of love.....but lemme get off that for a sec....I wanna say something, the other day, the Colts won the superbowl against our Chicago Bears, no big deal, matters nothing, but what was FANTASTIC about it was what Coach Tony Dungy and Coach Lovee Smith had to say about the Lord....these two men, pregame got together and prayed, and then when Coach Dungy was postgame interviewed, he was WITNESSING big time on national TV, I was crying with joy.

Now why is it, thats its lauded when men testify that they work for the Glory of the Lord in the business of football, yet when the field of the entertainment industry is brought up, people are "vile" and "phony", etc?

We NEED Christians in the entertainment industry, in the arts, we need to encourage them and pray for them....and if they're not Christians, we REALLY need to pray for them, pray for me!! Coz I am, and I need it.

I agree wholeheartedly, 97% of the stuff thats put out is absolute junk, on all levels, craftmenship-wise, content and spiritual, but 3% isnt, might it be that Christians are involved?

think about it.

Without boasting, I know a lot of people, public people and for some reason, for a few years now, I have had a burden on my heart, pray-wise, for two folks (and please dont laugh) Tom Sizemore and Britney Spears...I don't know why, well, I do, its the Holy Spirit, I been praying for Tom all thru his struggles with meth addiction and anger, I even wrote him a letter, a sober minded letter, to search his heart and realize that WITHOUT Jesus, he will never kick meth. May God answer my prayers and turn that man into a trophy of Grace, instead of a reality show on VH1.

Praying for Britney, because I heard thru the L.A. grapevine, Christian grapevine, that one Sunday, she walked up to the altar in Pastor Ulmer's church, fell to her knees, sobbing and asking for prayer. Imagine if God turns that dear girl into a trophy of Grace, witnessing to the mass public the Love of Jesus, how many young women look up to her?, and then they would see the miracle working Power of the Lord.

those two (among many other private individuals) are in my heart in interceding prayer, I dont know why, they just are, and it might be that way for Russell Crowe....all I know is this, when I was sitting in that darkened theater, watching that film, that me and my son had waited months for me, and that wind filled the sails after a horrible tragedy, which was the suicide drowning of a young midshipman who believed he was the "Jonah" of the ship, cursing the crew by his very presence, the Captain led the assembled crew in prayer......then the wind filled the sails, and when that captain said "God be praised", I started crying, because it was not phony vile or putrid to me, it was the representation of a man recognizing his utter dependency on God, and that young boy beside me felt it too, I whispered in his ear, "God be praised", he looked at me and nodded.

Thats why I took such umbrage with your post.

You had to have been there.....and you werent.

Praise God for an edifying discussion on God and the arts vis-a-vis Bach, may God rest his soul.

neil

 2007/2/7 23:12
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Paul,

You make an interesting distinction between vocation and profession. Like you I have unwittingly blended these two ideas. It might be an interesting thread to discuss callings and how they relate to our 'secular' roles.

Quote:
In the message, I proposed that many of the Christian students in attendance may in fact be out of the will of God and persuing a self-chosen profession rather than fulfilling the original "calling" placed upon their life.



This idea challenges me but it does not ofend me. Indeed, one of my secret fears to serious prayer is that once we finally have the lights turned on in our hearts, we will be flooded with regrets over the lukewarm years. Still we persevere in prayer wanting all our deeds pleasing to the Lord...even if our good deeds are at first only repenting for the evil and waste we have committed ...He is faithful.

This is one reason I happily welcome the benchmark you pointed to in those men who left their jobs under Wesley's preaching. I believe God is spiritually blessing the work he has supplied me with, but I would never want to esteem my life as high as those who dedicate their lives to preaching the gospel without ceasing.

Yet I still believe we can have a very real calling even while engaged in 'secular' work; that is to say we can be obedient, responsible, and joyful in the secular place or role God has given us, being diligent and faithful in providing for our families, and caring for others.

While keeping preaching and teaching the Word of God in a class by itself, I believe scripture does support a more 'global' picture of calling...that is to say that a Christian is 'called' not only to Preach the gospel but also to exemplify the Gospel in all aspects of life. Not to strain our terminology here...

Col. 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

18Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

19Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

20Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

21Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

22Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

23And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

The saints Paul was writing too were being encouraged to fulfill their calling. Obviously he was writing to a local community and not a seminary for evangelists...so there is the implication that a calling of God could be evident and fullfilled in whatsoever these saints were doing. Obviously this whatsoever couldn't negate or contradict the testimony of the Christ within them, but this scripture seems to indicate that not only preachers and evangelists have callings...but also fathers, wives, children and servants.

And I dare say...this scripture may suggest that even playwrites can fulfill their calling to the body of Christ.;-)Not that writing screen plays is spiritual in itself...but being faithful in the task as unto the Lord is certainly part of a calling...at least as calling is used in Colosians.

Even so I still regard preaching the Gospel as the highest calling. I say that with gratitude for Godly preachers and not with envy or disdain for where the Lord has me in business.

Your thoughts?

Blessings brother,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/7 23:32Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Well, I've read all three posts. Thank you all for the gracious discussions. I think it's expedient to say that every Christian upon conversion gets a [i]calling[/i] placed on his or her life regardless of what they do for a living or where they do it. But I am still having a problem linking the calling to the profession; the calling, I believe, is unto Christ alone who can certainly [i]use[/i] the Christian in his or her profession. But I just can't reconcile the fact that the profession has become the calling itself. Oh, the tediousness of it all!

Quite simply: The call, the [i]vox[/i] is "Follow me." (Matt. 5:19). The call therefore is not acting (which is how this whole thing started), or fishing, or tentmaking, or baseball, or playwriting, or undertaking - though we can walk worthy of the calling in any one of these areas!

Any thoughts?

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/8 0:24Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Oh, the tediousness of it all!



:-) Which is one reason I appreciate patience...
I tend to learn very slo-o-o-o-wly.

Quote:
Quite simply: The call, the vox is "Follow me." (Matt. 5:19). The call therefore is not acting (which is how this whole thing started), or fishing, or tentmaking, or baseball, or playwriting, or undertaking - though we can walk worthy of the calling in any one of these areas!



This sounds right to me, though it can be said that in following we may be led into various tasks and situations. A husband providing for his family might feel God has given Him a secular job to to...and might rather be in fulltime ministry but out of submission thinks of his work as his present calling. (Not that this is the best use of the term.)

In any case we can agree that our calling is brought to bear on whatsoever we do. If we must take on acceptable 'secular' work that does not grieve the Spirit, we can apply ourselves with devotion and obedience to God, and if we find ourselves doing unacceptable work that does indeed grieve the Holy Spirit, our devotion and obedience will disown such a profession or vocation. I only mention this to iron out Neil's statement that everything is redeemable. Men and women are redeemable...worldly institutions and economies are at best reformable but ultimately these corrupt things will be, I believe, replaced entirely with God's kingdom.

And that's another thread I'm sure...but felt it applies here. Along side of Paul's seperation of calling from professional task, I would add we are called to be aliens and not residents even in our workplaces...redeemed from this world which will pass away.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/8 12:18Profile









 MC

what I meant by "redeemable" is this: (and maybe I'm not so adroit with words)

take the internet for example, there is so much wickedness on the internet, we can both agree on that, and i wont even outline the forms this wickedness takes, but here, in this corner, growing corner of the internet, thru the ministry of Greg, and the toil of him and other moderators, and thru the Spirit led participation of all who comment and most importantly pray, this corner of the internet is redeeming one element of the world we live in.


thats all I meant....say bud, me and the boy are planning a trip to Cedar Point in the first week of July!! He loves rides, daddy of course, will be sitting on a bench at the foot of the rides, reading, but hey, we also booked the whole package, the hotel, etc..for two days, and then we drive south to Ripley to research the next play, then back to Chicago.....so.......lets talk.

in Jesus' love, neil

 2007/2/8 12:59





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