SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Authentic Biblical Christianity.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : The End of England

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
not to be trite but i find it interesting that every empire which did mistreat the israelites suffered destruction or some other cataclysm...Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and Rome...perhaps there is some connection between mistreating Jews in the sense of Israelites rather than Israelis and the death of these empires...


Every empire travels the same path. They come, they flourish, they die. The Aztecs, the Maya, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, all these have come and gone without ever touching the 'Jews'. The nations you mention above did suffer the consequences of touching the people that was "the apple of God's eye" but if you read your Bible history you will know that they were raised up by God for specific purposes relating to that people and when they abused that purpose judgement fell on them.

It all comes down to whether or not you equate the Israeli nation state with 'the people of God'. I do not because I cannot interpret the scripture in that way. I am constantly urged to read Romans 9-11 by people who are frustrated with me and I would guess that I have read Romans as often as most of the people who advise me to do so. If I were to extract Romans 9-11 and treat it as a separate revelation I might well come to the conclusions that others have reached, but I read Romans 1-16 and I come to different conclusions. I hear a chorus running through the whole... there is no difference...

I never try to convince anyone that I am right in my interpretations and I never try to change anyone's mind. I simply say to so many who are utterly convinced 'I am not convinced'. I can choose not to say it and that would make life a little more peaceful, but if I am asked or someone shares something in a public community I will say what I think. Usually the form will be asking awkward questions rather than proposing a scheme of eschatology.

I still find it surprising to see the kind of anger that my 'inability to see' brings upon my head, but I am learning to live with it.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/1 3:09Profile









 Re: Ron

I didnt "carry" any anger, I was overjoyed when you went to Bt, as i have brothers who also go to Bt, and I celebrated thusly, publicly with you, on this forum.....

but when I point out the fact that the horrendous way Great Britain has treated the Jewish people in the past, expellingly them from the islands, Crusaders, institutionalized anti-semitism within the UK, and corelate this with the current empty state of the church in the UK, you term me "foolish" and refuse to even address your nations shameful past in both its dealings with the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel, which you blaspheme the Promises of God by terming it as a "middle-eastern nation state", you expect me to react to that with hugs and kisses?

to me, your attitude regarding Israel is just a result of your nativist national prejuidices, rather than reading of Scripture, and the Promises and Covenants God made with the people of Israel, which are not only given then, but applicable now, and as a Jew saved by Grace, when I hear the foul apostate theory of "replacement theology", the conversation ends.

Now, if that is "intemperate", so be it, and I do not "carry" anger, but don't dare for a second forget the Root you recieve Your Nourishment from.

The modern state of Israel is from God, by God and very much in God's Heart and Mind, and right now, it faces extreme danger from those who conspire to burn it "with fire" as they have promised, and it is the EU who stands with the enemies of Israel, if not by deed, then by their background machinations and sympathies.

All my friends on this forum knew that "bartle" was me Neil Giuntoli, as i have signed off many many times as neil, or sent them PMs telling them what I have been doing, or chatted with them on the phone or fellowshipped with them.

 2007/2/1 3:23
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
but when I point out the fact that the horrendous way Great Britain has treated the Jewish people in the past, expellingly them from the islands, Crusaders, institutionalized anti-semitism within the UK, and corelate this with the current empty state of the church in the UK, you term me "foolish" and refuse to even address your nations shameful past in both its dealings with the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel, which you blaspheme the Promises of God by terming it as a "middle-eastern nation state", you expect me to react to that with hugs and kisses?


You see I don't regard UK as my 'nation'. I just live here. My 'nation' is the people who were not a people but have become God's people; ie the church. BTW the way I don't think you can 'blaspheme' objects, only persons. I am no more responsible for Britain's foreign policy than you are for America's slave history.

I think your correlation is a false mapping of cause and effect. The sufferings suffered in various African nations during the last decades are horrendous and their nations are bruised beyond imagination but it has nothing to do with their foreign policy.


Quote:
to me, your attitude regarding Israel is just a result of your nativist national prejuidices, rather than reading of Scripture, and the Promises and Covenants God made with the people of Israel, which are not only given then, but applicable now, and as a Jew saved by Grace, when I hear the foul apostate theory of "replacement theology", the conversation ends.


On the contrary I am and always have been pro-Israeli. I have never personally met a single instance of anti-semitism in my 65 years in the UK. In fact, as far as I know, I had never met a Jew until I was in my middle twenties. I don't deny that it exists but then I don't move in high circles. My earliest eschatological position was Scofield so my nativist prejudices, theologically, were to regard the nation state of Israel as the fulfillment of OT prophecy. I am old enough to remember when the blue and white star of David first flew over Jerusalem. I told the church that I pastored, the time of the Gentiles is over, the Coming is imminent. It was subsequently that I reexamined the scriptures to try to understand for myself what they were saying.

As regards 'replacement theology' I am often branded as such. My own description is 're-constitution theology'. The Old Covenant is certainly replaced by the New, and it was the Old Covenant which gave the people of Israel its tenancy agreement to the promised land.

The Root that I receive my nourishment from is Abrahamic rather than Judaic. It was Abraham in his pre-circumcision faith whose faith I follow.


Quote:
The modern state of Israel is from God, by God and very much in God's Heart and Mind, and right now, it faces extreme danger from those who conspire to burn it "with fire" as they have promised, and it is the EU who stands with the enemies of Israel, if not by deed, then by their background machinations and sympathies.


Wasn't it an American ambassador who said 'we don't have friends, only interests'? I find it difficult to be 'temperate' about governments of any kind. I obey them but distrust them. My reading of history has shown me too clearly the hypocrisy that drives national destinies. I hold no brief to defend the EU. When they asked me if I wanted to join, I said 'no' but they didn't listen.

I fully support Israel's right to national existence and her right to defend herself from those who wish her harm. I know, however, that there is no such thing as uninterpreted history and one man's history is another man's propaganda.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/1 4:18Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 36669
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
All my friends on this forum knew that "bartle" was me Neil Giuntoli, as i have signed off many many times as neil, or sent them PMs telling them what I have been doing, or chatted with them on the phone or fellowshipped with them.


Brother,

Please show wisdom in your posting. I know we can disagree with brothers on this forum such as brother Ron. But the primary use of the forums is for edification. Here is a quote from the "community rules"

Quote:
It is very important to note that you are joining a vibrant community of believers across the entire world. The main reason for the discussion forums being on this site in the first place is for discussions revolving around the audio sermon speakers and the themes and topics they bring up.

The paramount theme of the site is revival! The discussing of the history of revivals and spurning each other onto praying to this end to see a revival across the world is one of the cheif ends of the discussion forums.

It should be noted that the underlying principle in discussions needs to be EDIFICATION.



I cannot get my mind off the fact that all the words and intentions in our posts will be brought before the judgement seat of Christ in that "great day!" May God continue to purify our speech, writing and mind.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/2/1 4:25Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2639
Nottingham, England

 Re: The End of England

Due to the 'turn' this thread has taken, I went back and read the original post.

There is no mention in the article of the Jews, Israel, Abraham etc. No mention whatsoever.

So where did all of that come from?

I believe the poster was just showing a truth contained in the word of God.

That truth is found in Galatians 6v7, 'Do not be deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

I assumed the poster was concerned, to put it mildly, that the nation he lives in is headed for God's judgment rather than revival.

My assumption, that's not in the article.

So let's put personal disputes to one side and get back on track for each others edification.

How we need to be edified!

We are in the last days, and the eternal souls of men are at stake.

Let's pray for their salvation, for God's glory and honour.

God bless.

 2007/2/1 5:01Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1676
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Is it worth kicking a dog whilst it is down?
Most people can express problems I am doing the best to preach the gospel on the streets .
Wouldn't it be better to pray for england more now that is in this state rather than critize, we are all living for a heavenly kingdom rather than an earthly one. England is dark but as the dark is getting darker the light is getting lighter!!!
Dom


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2007/2/1 5:45Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: institutionalised anti-semitism in the UK

I don’t know how much time Neil has spent in the UK but I do feel that this particular statement needs to be addressed for the sake of truth. I have lived here for 65 years and taken a lively interest in current affairs for most of that time. I have never seen or heard a single example of ‘institutionalised anti-semitism’. In fact, some might say the reverse was true. Gorbachov once complained that all Margaret Thatchers cabinet were Jews; it was an exageration but there were very many. I never heard a single adverse comment about this during the whole time of her premiership. Here is a comprehensive website called [url=http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/uk_jewish_faqs/index.htm]Something Jewish[/url] This should give you some idea of how well-integrated Jews are into UK life and culture. The latest census puts the Jewish population at somewhere under 300,000.. that is reckoned to be about one half of one percent of the UK population.

Or you might take a look at [url=http://www.bod.org.uk/]The Board of Deputies of British Jews[/url] Britain, despite having a Jewish community 20 times smaller than that of the United States, has 59 Jewish members of parliament, including 18 in the House of Commons and 41 in the House of Lords. The latter number includes seven barons whose seats in the house were hereditary until recently. However, the umbrella organization of British Jewry said that in fact, the number of Jews in the House of Lords is even higher, totaling at least 46. For comparison we have 2 Muslim members of parliament and 5 in the house of lords from a populations that calculates as 3% of the population ie 1.6 million. Crimes against Jews are decreasing annually.

Leading individuals in all walks of UK life are Jewish; in medicine, commerce, arts, law. Leading TV personalities, comedians, intellectuals are Jewish. On a lighter note it might be worth noting that the UK had a Jewish prime-minister before Israel did, twice! Disraeli between 1868 and 1874.

If this is institutionalised anti-semitism… what would happen if we all became advocates of semitism? I would go as far as to say my experience is that most UK folk admire and respect Israel and are instinctively more aligned to the Israeli point of view. However, the Brits hate to see the under-dog getting ‘slapped around’ and some of Israel’s responses to Palestinians have left some UK people troubled in their instinctive support.

This nation, in which I sojourn, needs the prayers of God’s people but it needs informed prayer and not the prejudices of hate. Please don’t go bending God’s ear about British institutionalised anti-semitism… He won’t know what you are talking about.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/1 8:54Profile
wallrepairer
Member



Joined: 2005/2/7
Posts: 33


 Re: End of England

I too live in England and yes it is a difficult time for our nation.

However... despite the bleak situation we are in we are seeing God respond to our cries for our land. The darkness has caused us to draw to God's light, the spiritual depression has caused us to hold fast to God's promises, the political and spiritual compromise has driven us back to the Living Word.

There is however a new hope in the air and people are starting to see positive movement. In our area where churches have split multiple times and sheep stealing was a problem, there is now an unprecedented cooperation and many churches(60)are beginning to share the work of pastoring the city. They are beginning to find their 'voice' for their city.

But the real hope is among our young people.
They continually pray for God to take them, break them, and make them holy.
They cry to God to make them humble so he will get all the glory.
They refuse to compromise or live lives of compromise.
They fast and pray like people desperate for God.
They have only one word on their lips.
What is this word?
Revival.
They are out on the streets in the 'worst' neighbourhoods reaching out to the unlovely.
They have set up charities to do social justice and mercy ministries work.
They are militant and have no fear.
They are planting out churches to reach other young people.
They are snatching people out of prostitution, drug addiction, homelessness, and those who are on the brink of danger.
Our young people are infectious with their passion for God and we are all praying to catch what they have!!

So is England at the end of itself?
Maybe...

But... the end of man and the end of human endeavours is not a bad thing because it is the beginning of a mighty opportunity for God and those who seek after him.

So please, let's not make negative declarations over this nation and curse it.

Instead, let us continue our prayers for mercy. Let us pray that God will indeed continue to hear our prayers.

2 Chronicles 7:14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Let us pray this not only for England but of all nations we represent on SI.

Surely, nothing is too difficult from him!

 2007/2/1 9:25Profile
JGB321
Member



Joined: 2006/10/11
Posts: 116


 Re:

Hello wallrepairer,

I don't know what part of the UK you live in but I have travelled all over this country preaching and I can share with the wider world, that there is no revival happening at present. If you think 60 churches coming together is something to get excited about, think again. If these churches are in the ecumenical movement (which is controlled by Rome) than you're being led away from the Truth and not nearer. When genuine revival is present, pubs, clubs, cinemas and other ungodly institutions shut down. If this is not happening in your town, or any town for that matter, than its not revival as we know it. (Check out George Whitefield’s accounts.) Until that happens, all you're seeing is cosmetic makeovers, and this is nothing to boast about.

I will also say that the UK is NOT anymore anti-Jewish than France or Germany (both have long supported the Palestinians over Israel.) True, the UK abstained in 48' at the UN, but so too did others, with some even voting against. However, as I say in my other article "Great Britain Has Fallen", the UK has declined since 1951, thanks primarily to the Druid Prime Minster, Winston Churchill and a weak Queen Elizabeth II.

I believe there is little hope for Western Europe as a whole.

 2007/2/1 10:57Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1676
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

deleted


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2007/2/1 10:58Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy