I was so encouraged to read the article by Zac Poonen on tithing, where he says the only reason we have tithing, is because pastors love money! See his article on sermon index here.
I had thought that websites like theTithe.org were lone rangers! It seems that in today's commercialized church it is, but not in revived times past. What do you guys make of the whole tithing debate? Time we got rid of it, and went revival?
| 2007/1/29 21:36||Profile|
| Re: Tithing|
Pastors only want money?
Brother, have you ever been a pastor?
You have no idea at the sacrifice that most of these blessed bretheren make. There are some that love money, but I would have to say they are few in number compared to those that sacrifice for the love of their Saviour.
| 2007/1/29 21:51|
Zac Poonen didn't say "pastors only want money" he said that the only reason that tithing is preached is because of pastors who love money. He didn't say that all pastors are like that, just the ones who preach tithing.
It encouraged me to realize that there was once a day when men of God could trust God without needing the tithing "doctrine".
| 2007/1/29 22:01||Profile|
he said that the only reason that tithing is preached is because of pastors who love money. He didn't say that all pastors are like that, just the ones who preach tithing.
I must disagree with brother Poonen. Perhaps the pastors who constantly rail on tithing and giving, but not all who preach tithing. My pastor has mentioned tithing (never as the core sermon subject, but rather as a sidenote) a few times. Not because he's money hungry, but because of God's promise to meet the needs of those who give.
Constant talk about prosperity, and tithing, and firstfuits is nonsense, but the occasional mentioning of it (because it is a Biblical principal) is okay. Is it not?
| 2007/1/30 0:58||Profile|
| Re: Tithing|
I do believe in tithing because of this scripture:
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
I believe however that the real issue is that everything we have is a stewardship from God. He might want us go give a lot more than ten percent. The ten percent is just an acknowledgment that everything belongs to God to distribute as He wills.
| 2007/1/30 1:22||Profile|
| Re: Tithing|
You people do not sound like cheerful givers.
It's sad that Christians can be so mean.
I might be wrong, but it seems as though you begrudge giving even 10%. Why is this?
Let's look at a few scriptures.
Mark 12v42-44 Jesus commends the widow for giving 'all that she had, her whole livelihood'.
Her whole livelihood? Yes, her all.
Acts 4v34-37 people were selling land or houses and giving the money to the apostles to distribute to all who had need.
When was the last time that happened?
Most would end up like Ananias and Sapphira!
2 Cor 9v5-7 Paul is exhorting the Corinthians to prepare their generous gift, and not grudgingly.
Also who sows bountifully reaps bountifully, and sparingly reaps sparingly. Take note.
Matt 6v19-20 Jesus tells us not to lay up treasures on earth, but in heaven.
2 Cor 8v2 says, 'That in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality'.
They were in deep poverty, yet liberal, generous in giving.
Luke 12v33, 'Sell what you have and give alms, provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.
Sell and give alms? That's what they did in the book of Acts.
If anything, a tithe is small compared to what was taking place in the New Testament church.
We want revival? Some of us need to be saved from the love of money before that can happen.
| 2007/1/30 7:05||Profile|
I have to agree with enid. They counted nothing they had as their own and joyfully suffered the spoiling of their goods. Their hearts weren't set on earthly things, everything was for the furthering of the Kingdom and the benefit of the brethren.
| 2007/1/30 7:56||Profile|
God owns it all. We should give and give and give.
But as for tithing... being compelled to give a certain amount... this is part of the OT Law, and there is not one time that this is taught in the NT church. If tithing was as important as most churches make it out to be, then it seems there would be teachings about it throughout the NT, and there is not one mention of tithing after Christ's resurrection.
Paul gave instructions for how a collection should be taken up to help the poorer Christians in Jerusalem... but this was not a tithe. I believe those who teach this as a part of tithing are in error.
| 2007/1/30 8:51|
Goldminer... your references to Jesus mentioning the tithe is correct... in [i]that[/i] context, because Jesus had not died and been resurrected yet. Thus the OT Law was still in effect. He commended them for obeying certain aspects of the Law, and rightfully so.
BUT... after His resurrection, the Law was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Christians were free to eat meats that were forbidden under OT Law. Christians no longer needed to observe the ceremonial washings. You didnt have to be circumsized in order to be stand before God.
YET... many Christians still cling to the Law when it comes to tithing.
If you're going to keep one part of the Law, then you need to keep ALL of it. We cant pick and choose.
Having said that, we should give everything we have to God. Someone has a need... give. Missionaries need money to minister? Sell some stuff!! Give give give!
What I am against is preachers who yell "Can a man rob God?? If you dont tithe... the devil will eat your crops!"
Thats OT Law. When we get out from under the Law we are then free to be joyful givers! Being compelled to give 10% has proven that it does not produce joyful givers... it produces people who grumble about having to give 10%!
It also produces undo condemnation and guilt for those who simply cant give 10%.
We're either free... or we are not. I choose freedom!
| 2007/1/30 9:29|
| Re: Tithing|
I think this does so much injustice to Zac Poonen! I cannot tell you which message it is exactly because I've listened to over a hundred of his teachings, but he spoke at length about how he never accepted any money from the church.
Zac Poonen even paid back the church when they threw him a birthday party... he did it in secret, but this is part of how the Lord has lead him to live. Like Apostle Paul he has chosen to be a tent-maker instead of asking money for the Gospel, but doesn't force this teaching on anyone else.
One thing that is worth noting is that he said the strict tithe of 10% was Old Testament LAW. The reason the Pharisees gave 10% was that it was required of the Old Covenant Law.
So Zac Poonen asks quite frankly, 'are we required to pay 10% since we are no longer under the Old Covenant Law?' And of course this answer is no... but he didn't stop there, and that's what I think is the most important...
He continues that we are under the New Covenant... so how much do we owe under the New Covenant? Everything!!! He asked pretty frankly to the audience, 'when was the last time that you thought about your money as if it all belonged to God... [b]God doesn't want 10%, in fact New Covenant believers when they understand this often give MORE THAN 10%![/b]'
That's right, Zac Poonen wasn't teaching that we shouldn't tithe at all -in fact he was teaching that since we are under the New Covenant Law of Love, we should tithe even more generously, because we know who the provider of our money is.
Now we can trust that when Zac Poonen preached this he was not asking anyone for their money, because he doesn't get any money from the church that he teaches at, so any money that is tithed in addition because of this preaching goes to the church needs and ministries... I think this is such a beautiful teaching of New Testament giving!
Apostle Paul went around asking for offerings at his churches for the church in Jerusalem... do you think this was begging, do you think he skimmed off the top for himself? No, absolutely not. So there is a right way to ask for money, if the reasons are properly motivated.
However this money was for the suffering church in Jersualem... not for a new church building, or some expensive broadcasting equipment, or a trip to Europe for the Pastor and his wife. This money was earmarked for the good of the suffering body of Christ!
I would be hard pressed to find any church in America that even gave 25% of the tithing it takes towards Christian Aid to the poor, sick and needy -or to missions for that matter.
We need a new understanding of New Covenant Tithing!
| 2007/1/30 10:42||Profile|