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Chad
Member



Joined: 2003/11/17
Posts: 56
JC MO

 Re: FRUSTRATED SIGH...

:roll:
Are you serious? Or are you kidding, at any rate, here is what I mean, by my "oxymoron"
There is a battle between good and evil. And, like it or not, we are little chess pieces. Either we are on the winning side or the losing side. This battle is bigger than all of us, like it or not.
If my word isn't sufficient for a headstrong wiseman as yourself, (I'm a fool, out of my mind...)Then would the Apostle Paul suffice? Would you argue with him???
How about Ephesians 6:12: ("Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but againstthe rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark worldand against the spirirtual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.")
Let' think logically, buddy...
HEAVENLIES=SPIRIT
WAR IN HEAVENLIES...
HENCE SPIRITUAL WARFARE
Now please, without further ado, go out, buy a Bible, read up, check your facts, and think before inserting your foot in your keyboard.
In Christ...
Chad Lough

Quote:

jake wrote:

What is spiritual warfare? Sounds like an oxymoron -- randomly organized, larger half, genuine imitation naughahide -- if I ever heard one.

Jake

Funny, ain't it? :-D


_________________
Chad Lough

 2004/3/4 12:54Profile
Chad
Member



Joined: 2003/11/17
Posts: 56
JC MO

 Re: AND OH, BY THE WAY

If what I say is naughahide, then you are telling me scripture is naughahide, which means you call GOD a liar, which means you're decieving yourself, which means you've no concept of what you stand for.
Buddy, I'll pray for you. That's not some jab, either, I mean it. I'm concerned.
Seriously, stop trying to rely on your wisdom, because that is one of the many tools of the devil in this... Hey!! SPIRITUAL WARFARE!
So... who's side are you on?
(You=pride=devil?)
OR
(God's word=truth=God?!)
God bless.
Chad


_________________
Chad Lough

 2004/3/4 13:05Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

You definitely should start a new thread or change the title. "Pacifist" is more often associated with a position or attitude towards wars on earth.

You might also want to clarify what you think is "standing on Christ's side." After all, every Christian, despite their widely different beliefs, would like to think that they are "standing on Christ's side."


_________________
Sam

 2004/3/4 13:24Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Gentleman please.

Trading barbs is unnecessary and unedifying.
We do have some rules around here.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7&forum=12&2]Community Rules[/url]

You have to keep in mind that topics sometimes are either misunderstood or have a tendency to develop on their own as questions or comments are raised and a thread progress's.

My suggestion here would be to start a new posting with a heading refering to Spiritual Warfare or however you would like to frame it.
Also, the forum is set up with certain guidelines that are helpful as to topics.
This may be a good canidate for the "Scriptural Debates" section if you wanted to emphesize that aspect. Certainly it is not limited and could just as easily be discussed in the "lounge".

Mike


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/3/4 13:29Profile









 Re: spiritual warfare

Chad,

Didn't mean to offend. I think warfare is a poor metaphor in relation to spirituality. War is a process of killing people randomly, as well as methodically. There's lots of "collateral damage" in warfare.

Moreover there are no weapons equivalent to guns and bombs in spirituality. The two concepts just don't go together and lead the reader to strange conceptualizations (Jesus with an uzi! Mary with an atomic bomb!)

Quakers have adopted a nomenclature that avoids all references to tools of war. Thus the "target" of a project becomes the "objective", "bullet" points in writing are "dots" etc. At first this seemed strange to me. After a while I came to understand that quakes do so because we don't want to borrow anything from militant outlooks on the world. May sound namzi panzi, but it provides consistency in communications. And pacifists declaring a war on poverty, a battle for civil rights, and the fight for religious freedom puts the speaker in the realm of hyperbole with all of the politicians. It just doesn't work very well and makes the reader question the point.

Jake

PS. Anybody out there counting the times someone has written something similar to: if such and such it true, then "God is a Liar." I think it's more than a dozen since I have joined this discussion group. Is it something that is frequently employed in evangelical religious education? Recently Greg was upset about my "Love your enemies or punish them in hell" post because he feared I was treading on the edge of sacrilege. I admit I was trying to be controversial, but for a specific reason that I didn't feel would be communicated as well in a more subtle manner. (that there are contrasting points in the Bible) But this notion that we can put God to a test, that if something we believe is revealed to not be true and this makes God a liar, scares the you know what out of me. Chad, be very careful in this area. We are not to put God to the test.

 2004/3/4 14:59
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Spiritual warfare is a reality and all Christians are called to participate in it, as clearly instructed by the apostle Paul (Ephesians 6).


_________________
Sam

 2004/3/4 15:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Spiritual warfare is a reality and all Christians are called to participate in it, as clearly instructed by the apostle Paul (Ephesians 6).

Hi Sam
I hope you have learned to cope with my pedantry by now, but I don't think Paul 'calls us to participate in it'. I think he is telling us that we are already in it, so we had better be armed for the conflict. Carl Marx used to say that he had not declared 'class war' but only identified it; I think Paul is doing something similar.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/4 16:02Profile









 Re: armed for the conflict

PHilologos,

When you say we had better be "armed for the conflict" I can't help wondering if you mean from an offensive or a defensive position. ANd this wondering then goes to "armed in what way?" Should I start a fast? sell all my worldly possessions and give all to the poor?

Wouldn't it be more clear in meaning if you just said we should watch and be steadfast in our faith?

Jake

 2004/3/4 16:22
Chad
Member



Joined: 2003/11/17
Posts: 56
JC MO

 Re: If I May...

All past comments aside, I wonder if I can respond?

We should be armed defensively and offensively. I derive this from Ephesians 6:10-18. Paul instructs us to carry a shield, a breastplate, a helmet, a belt, (all defensive)and a sword (for both defense and offense.)
Now of course these were metaphors, we can't carry around Roman battle gear to the workplace or church, or the grocery store...
But we should be armed with
1.) Truth (belt)
2.) Righteousness(breastplate)
3.) Readiness that comes from Peace (shoes)
4.) Faith (shield)
5.) Salvation(helmet)
6.) The word of God, which we should always be sharp on. (sword)

So as I said earlier, we should be armed with peace, gentleness, meekness,incorruptible pure hearts, all these things powerfully destroy the work of the enemy.
For example: If, at your workplace, there is a negative person, who has a vile attitude, then do this-respond to him/her not with criticism but with gentleness and love, and do it a second time, a third, a fourth, (IT'S RETURNING THAT SHOWS YOU CARE FOR REAL...) and watch how God will tear down that stronghold. Your lovingkindness was a weapon counteracting Satan's weapon of vileness thru him/her. You can apply this anywhere, to any situation, just apply the good that is greater than the bad you face.
I hope I was helpful.
P.S.
When we speak of spiritual warfare, there are no weapons equivalent to guns or atomic bombs. There is, however, "Collateral Damage", if you will.
If you are a literal person... here is an example.
Pornography--- it destroys millions of lives and distorts the view of a God ordained institution. It is a weapon from Satan, it does damage.
The power of Gd will demolish strongholds. When we tap into God's power, and actively pray and live out Christ's doctrine, we do damage do the realms of hell. (2 Corinthains 10:4+5)NO God does not distribute pistols and grenades to his children, but he gives us all kinds of cool weapons, not weapons of the world, as you think, but weapons from heaven.
prayer, righteousness, love, Etc etc


_________________
Chad Lough

 2004/3/5 10:08Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake wrote When you say we had better be "armed for the conflict" I can't help wondering if you mean from an offensive or a defensive position. ANd this wondering then goes to "armed in what way?" Should I start a fast? sell all my worldly possessions and give all to the poor?

Wouldn't it be more clear in meaning if you just said we should watch and be steadfast in our faith?

Jake
I know you are not enamoured of my beloved brother Paul, but this was a quotation from his letter to the Ephesians as Chad indicated later. I differ from Chad in this particular, I think the whole armour of God, in this passage, is defensive. I base this on the absence of the pilum; the throwing spear used by soldiers in offensive warfare, and by the fact that Paul says 'stand against the wiles of the devil' [v11] and that the thread runs on to say 'that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand' [v13] All this speaks to me of vigilant defence. The Roman soldier of Ephesians 6 is on 'guard duty'.

You probably don't touch these things in your 'unprogrammed friends' groups, but there has developed a whole technology of 'spiritual warfare' in some charismatic circles. Such folk use this Ephesians passage as a proof of their position, but fail to notice that in this particular place Paul is speaking of 'vigilant defence, rather than aggressive offence'.

As I read Eph 5/6, I see that the battle is already engaged and that the battlefield is relationships; husbands and wives, children and parents, masters and servants. In the Eph 6:12 instance, Paul says (literally) 'Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities etc.. (wrestling here is a noun and not a verb)

This is why I said he is not declaring war or even encouraging it. He is not saying we must 'wrestle' as some think but is simply saying that the 'wrestling' (struggle) is already engaged and that we need to be fully equipped if we are not to be overwhelmed.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/10 9:58Profile





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