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Discussion Forum : General Topics : More on God's Grace-- Is it Merited or Not?

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 Re: ????

You make me weep, my Brother... for joy!

If I read you correctly, what you see is what I see. The ocean of God's Grace who can define it? Surely it is His Favor, but much more in Riches that can only be summed up in Christ Jesus.

This is incomplete but I wanted to get this much out for our thinking. I pray it will stir and bless someone:

From Eph 1.7

He knows our frame and our striving to enter His kingdom, if indeed striving can be seen as the normal Christian life. Because of this striving to enter, from the desire of our heart, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus who makes intercession on our behalf when we miss the mark. [Door]
The riches of His Grace here mentioned can be seen as no less than Christ Jesus, Himself. Hence, if we turn from Him, we turn from the riches of His Grace. So our meriting God's Grace lies with our being in Christ who did merit it.

We must come to the understanding that our redemption is for His sake, therefore it is He, who merited God’s Grace in His flesh, who received it in full measure while in His Flesh and who is now our saving Grace, [Rom.5.1] if we are found in Him. If we are found in Him by Father it will be witnessed by Him as our striving to be like Him, i.e., Christ Jesus, the process whereby we are conformed to His image.

Those who speak of unmerited favor have shortsighted/incomplete view of salvation, believing it only to be about fire insurance. This is detraction from the full truth of God’s saving Grace, whether it is done in ignorance or by design. It harms His purpose for His son. He saves that we might become joint heirs with Jesus, which is joy unspeakable and full of Glory the which has never been fully told.... nor will it ever be. It will take eternity with Him to fathom it all out.

Once saved, if we don’t pursue son-ship, a striving after it by learning God’s Grace and that it is for us that we enter Kingdom living, we will miss out on His ultimate intention for Himself. Question is: Do seek Him simply for who He is or for ourselves --- His sake or ours?

 2007/1/26 7:14
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ormly,

You have started two threads concerning the same topic. Can we please keep one thread for this topic.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14366&forum=35]Concerning God's Grace[/url]

 2007/1/26 8:45Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ormly you said something interesting on the 'tribes' thread that correlates to this discussion.

Quote:
Many in the world wait to hear this message. They wait with prepared hearts because they have recognized Grace as presented them to their understanding and live according to it, however imperfect their endeavors. It is a heart issue and God foreknows who they are who have a heart for Him.
Jesus Said, "Go and make disciples". He never said to go and get people saved. It should be obvious that what I am saying is that they already are and the message given should be about the kingdom of God and its Leadership.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=14371&forum=35&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]Link[/url]

Please explain this further. Are you saying that it is possible for an adult who has never heard/read the gospel or about Jesus to go to heaven when they die?

 2007/1/26 9:02Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ormly,

Quote:
#1. Unmerited favor is not a Biblical term.



What is a Biblical term? How do we define a word as being Biblical or not?

Titus 3:5a (NAS) He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy


Quote:
#2. It can be readily seen that God's favor, hence His Grace, is always conditional as is His promises.



On what condition?

Titus 2:11 (NAS) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Grace is given, but in order for anyone to have grace, it must be accepted. Grace cannot "be" with someone, until they have it. That is why it is also said:

Ephesians 6:24 (NAS) Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.


Quote:
#3. You make no mention of Folk before the Cross.



My friend, I am not sure we entirely disagree. If you were to develop my whole theology based upon that one comment above, you would missing out on so much. You asked about grace and not about faith. Salvation comes through both grace and faith. Paul said:

Ephesians 2:8 (NAS) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Grace is God's part and faith is our part. The work is entirely of God, all we must do is trust in God (believe in Jesus). When we come before the cross, we are convicted of sin. However, God is offering forgiveness if we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord. God is offering a gift, all we must do is accept it.

God's love is not conditional. God is offering His love. However, we do not have His love unless we accept it.

God is seeking unity by love (a marriage), and such a unity comes by both people giving love to each other. God gives His love by grace. We give our love through faith. When God affords His grace and we accept that grace through faith, The Holy Spirit unites as one with our spirit, thus bringing about salvation. It involves participation from both God and us.


Quote:
#4. This is NOT something someone earns as a works but rather because of his response to God who has revealed Himself.



Indeed, with this I agree. Though I would add: "who has revealed Himself through Christ."

Quote:
Response is NOT a work but rather the key that unlocks the door to God's Grace.



Here is where we disagree. You would believe that God has given grace only to those who have received it. However, I believe that God has given grace to all humans who have ever lived. Jesus died for all. God loves everyone.

This is made clear in several scriptures:

Titus 2:11 (quoted above)

2 Peter 3:9(NAS)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NAS)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

If you notice, 1 Tim 4:10 clearly makes a distinction between being savior of all men and believers. Paul said, "especially of believers." Christ has offered salvation to all, but only the believers accept the free gift offered by God.

Therefore, the love of God is unconditional. He has given His love to all humanity. Salvation is a free gift offered to all.

I hope this helps.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/1/26 9:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Ormly you said something interesting on the 'tribes' thread that correlates to this discussion.

Quote:
Many in the world wait to hear this message. They wait with prepared hearts because they have recognized Grace as presented them to their understanding and live according to it, however imperfect their endeavors. It is a heart issue and God foreknows who they are who have a heart for Him.
Jesus Said, "Go and make disciples". He never said to go and get people saved. It should be obvious that what I am saying is that they already are and the message given should be about the kingdom of God and its Leadership.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=14371&forum=35&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]Link[/url]

Please explain this further. Are you saying that it is possible for an adult who has never heard/read the gospel or about Jesus to go to heaven when they die?



Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?

 2007/1/26 9:08









 Re:

Dear Ormly,

Quote:


#1. Unmerited favor is not a Biblical term.



What is a Biblical term? How do we define a word as being Biblical or not?




For starters, find it in the Bible. If you can't, find where it is implied in the context of scripture. BECAREFUL!! Most importantly is to not make specifics into universal application when that is NOT the intent of the writer. Get my drift?

 2007/1/26 9:13
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?



Would you please be more clear in your answer.

 2007/1/26 9:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Grace is God's part and faith is our part. The work is entirely of God, all we must do is trust in God (believe in Jesus). When we come before the cross, we are convicted of sin. However, God is offering forgiveness if we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord. God is offering a gift, all we must do is accept it



If work is entirely God then why do you say faith is our part to which would agree with you?


As far being convicted when coming to the cross, that's a "maybe I will, maybe I won't". Depends on my need, how I feel about myself. That's why Jesus said "it is easier for a camel to go through...." you finish it.

 2007/1/26 9:20









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?



Would you please be more clear in your answer.




That's not an answer. It's question. Can you not answer it? You will find the answer to your question when you truthfully answer mine.

 2007/1/26 9:23
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

I feel like I am on the show 'Who's line is it Anyway?' and we can only answer questions with questions.

Ok, I will play along...'Has everyone in the world heard the gospel?'

 2007/1/26 9:36Profile





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