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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I agree that in regards to salvation, God's grace is not dependent upon man.

So, why are you trying to say that grace does not mean unmerited favor?

Here is where I am confused:
If grace is not dependent upon man, then man does not merit the grace by what he does or does not do. For the grace to not be unmerited, then it would be bestowed upon whomever meets certain criteria.

It cannot be unmerited/not dependent and merited/dependent at the same time.

 2007/1/23 12:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
I agree that in regards to salvation, God's grace is not dependent upon man.



If you are speaking of salvation for man, it most certainly does depend upon man, as with all that I have put forth to you. Man is given a choice to make.. Need scripture for that?

Quote:
So, why are you trying to say that grace does not mean unmerited favor?



Show me where it does? I gave you every verse in the Bible where the word "grace" is mentioned. Pick one, open it up and explore the context and then make a judgment.

Quote:
Here is where I am confused:
If grace is not dependent upon man, then man does not merit the grace by what he does or does not do.



Grace is a gift to man for him to do something with it, not to let pass him by without appropiating it's riches. Get my drift? Ever receive a gift like that and not take it?

Quote:
For the grace to not be unmerited, then it would be bestowed upon whomever meets certain criteria.



You must mean like, "faith"? If so, you are seeing the picture because without it it is impossible to please God nevertheless come to Him since it is in believing that draws men unto the Father who points you to Christ.

Quote:
It cannot be unmerited/not dependent and merited/dependent at the same time.



It can be whatever God deems it to be, however, His Grace will never violate His Holiness and Justice, ergo, His Character, therefore, believing and repentance must happen in the life a one before God's Grace can be appropiated. Can you see that?

Orm

 2007/1/23 13:34
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Concerning God's Grace

I wrote:

Quote:
Is grace therefore dependent upon man?



Ormly replied:
Quote:
No.



I then replied:

Help me to understand your position. You are saying that God initiates the process? That grace is not dependent upon man?


Ormly replied
Quote:
That's exactly correct.



I then replied back:
Quote:
I agree that in regards to salvation, God's grace is not dependent upon man.



To which Ormly then replied:
Quote:
If you are speaking of salvation for man, it most certainly does depend upon man, as with all that I have put forth to you. Man is given a choice to make.. Need scripture for that?



Ormly, your position changed during our discussion. For us to continue this discussion you are going to have to pick a side. Is God's grace dependent upon man or is it not dependent upon man. Clear this up for me.


Also, in response to my statement
Quote:
So, why are you trying to say that grace does not mean unmerited favor?



You said:
Quote:
Show me where it does?



Do you not remember the very first verse I gave?
Quote:
What do you make of Romans 11:5-6? "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."



Remember that was the verse that caused you to reply:
Quote:
I'm not interested what Paul is saying there or any place else. This has nothing to do with Paul.



Romans 11:5-6 speaks of Grace not being by works or based on anything that man does or does not do. This means that grace is unmerited.

 2007/1/23 15:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
I wrote:
Quote:
Is grace therefore dependent upon man?



Ormly replied:
Quote:
No.



I then replied:

Help me to understand your position. You are saying that God initiates the process? That grace is not dependent upon man?


Ormly replied
Quote:
That's exactly correct.


If you understood the meaning of Grace as given instead of embracing a singular meaning from Calvin's Intitutes, you would understand why I could say that without contradicting myself.

I then replied back:
Quote:
I agree that in regards to salvation, God's grace is not dependent upon man.



To which Ormly then replied:
Quote:
If you are speaking of salvation for man, it most certainly does depend upon man, as with all that I have put forth to you. Man is given a choice to make.. Need scripture for that?



Quote:
Ormly, your position changed during our discussion. For us to continue this discussion you are going to have to pick a side. Is God's grace dependent upon man or is it not dependent upon man. Clear this up for me.



My position hasn't changed one wit.

You fail to see that God initiates the whole thing from creation. He began the whole program by GIVING you first a body and then His Grace and a brain/mind in which to exercise YOUR perogatives. This goes by the term, "freewill" ... man's.. How much faith you have will be seen by how well you can sort out the issues of life and what you appropiate as a help in doing so. You will either respond with faith towards what God has provided as a gift to you or you will exercise your progative/freewill along another line of persuasion. Isn't God Good?!


Quote:
Also, in response to my statement
So, why are you trying to say that grace does not mean unmerited favor?



You said:
Quote:
Show me where it does?



Quote:
Do you not remember the very first verse I gave?
What do you make of Romans 11:5-6? "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."



Quote:
Remember that was the verse that caused you to reply:


Quote:
I'm not interested what Paul is saying there or any place else. This has nothing to do with Paul.... This has to do with the meaning of the word Grace

I believe that is more accurately what I wrote. Lets have some integrity in this and give the whole quote.


I stand by that remark. Grace does not ever violate God's Character. Whatever He CHOOSES must meet certain criteria that His Holiness and Justice be not violated. Therfore, those chosen, qualified. It is given for us to understand what that qualification is. I submit that it is the application of the Great Commandment and all that IT entails when we speak of rectification of our soul, our resposibility, not His. See 1 Pet.1.22.

Quote:
Romans 11:5-6 speaks of Grace not being by works or based on anything that man does or does not do. This means that grace is unmerited.



Then it must assumed by you that our love to the Father is irrelevant; "works".

 2007/1/23 16:44
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
If you understood the meaning of Grace as given instead of embracing a singular meaning from Calvin's Intitutes, you would understand why I could say that without contradicting myself.



In the context of grace in salvation, please tell me how you can say that grace is not dependent upon man but it is dependent upon man.

Quote:
Then it must assumed by you that our love to the Father is irrelevant; "works".



I am not saying that our love for God is irrelevant. I am saying that our love for God is not the reason why we receive Grace.

Does anyone else viewing this discussion believe that grace is merited by man?

 2007/1/23 17:54Profile
Abide
Member



Joined: 2004/10/18
Posts: 52


 Re:

Genesis 33:10 (KJV)
And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

ORMLY: this has ministered to ME, and reminded me of Gideon in the book of Judges and how he too went to prepare an offering for the Lord – the Angel of the Lord waited and the offering was consumed, do you understand? I concur that you do.

 2007/1/23 18:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
If you understood the meaning of Grace as given instead of embracing a singular meaning from Calvin's Intitutes, you would understand why I could say that without contradicting myself.



In the context of grace in salvation, please tell me how you can say that grace is not dependent upon man but it is dependent upon man.



Grace is unconditionally given. That's God's part, His gift, that man can only respond by an exercise of his faith. I'm sure you've read that somewhere.

Grace received is man's part, conditional upon his receiving it. That should be clear and simple.

Quote:
Then it must assumed by you that our love to the Father is irrelevant; "works".



I am not saying that our love for God is irrelevant. I am saying that our love for God is not the reason why we receive Grace.


I fully realize the sun shines on the just and the unjust equally however, our love TO God is ultimately the reason unto salvation. "Ultimately" should be emphasised because man is saved for a reason that only love TO and not FOR God imperative.

Quote:
Does anyone else viewing this discussion believe that grace is merited by man?



What? Not convinced yet? All that scripture falling on obstinacy. Whatta waste of good scripture.

 2007/1/23 18:42









 Re:

Quote:

Abide wrote:
Genesis 33:10 (KJV)
And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

ORMLY: this has ministered to ME, and reminded me of Gideon in the book of Judges and how he too went to prepare an offering for the Lord – the Angel of the Lord waited and the offering was consumed, do you understand? I concur that you do.



Amen Brother, All these verses from Genesis speak of a realisation of the need to be pleasing to God that they might receive of Him His blessings. No presumption allowed. Blessings of God to seen here as His Grace.


Genesis 6:8 (KJV)
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 19:19 (KJV)
Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Genesis 32:5 (KJV)
And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.

Genesis 33:8 (KJV)
And he said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he said, These are to find grace in the sight of my lord.

Genesis 33:10 (KJV)
And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

Genesis 33:15 (KJV)
And Esau said, Let me now leave with thee some of the folk that are with me. And he said, What needeth it? let me find grace in the sight of my lord.

Genesis 34:11 (KJV)
And Shechem said unto her father and unto her brethren, Let me find grace in your eyes, and what ye shall say unto me I will give.

Genesis 39:4 (KJV)
And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

Genesis 47:25 (KJV)
And they said, Thou hast saved our lives: let us find grace in the sight of my lord, and we will be Pharaoh's servants.

Genesis 47:29 (KJV)
And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:


 2007/1/23 18:53









 Re:

Genesis 6:8 (KJV)
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

Question for Jay: If you believe, and you must, that God's is arbitrary in giving out His "unmerited favor", how come no one else found Grace in the eyes of the Lord? How come with so much riding on this human event and tragety, Noah was the only one? What was God's reason for choosing Noah? Scripture chapter and verse, please.

 2007/1/23 19:00
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Grace is unconditionally given. That's God's part, His gift, that man can only respond by an exercise of his faith. I'm sure you've read that somewhere.

Grace received is man's part, conditional upon his receiving it. That should be clear and simple.



A study must be done concerning saving grace and saving faith.

Saving grace is given by God to those whom He chooses to regenerate. This grace is not extended to all people. (I know that is unpopular teaching, but it is scriptural.)

Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Notice where we were
-Slaves to sin.

Notice what happened
-God saved us.

Notice how salvation did not happen
-Through works done in righteousness.

Notice how salvation did happen
-His mercy, by the washing of regeneration.

How were we justified?
-By His grace poured out on us.

Who is the 'us' spoken of?
-All who receive the regenerating grace.

Saving grace is different than common grace. I agree with you statement:
Quote:
the sun shines on the just and the unjust equally


This is common grace.

Saving grace is regenerating grace. It is only through the regenerating grace that we can love God in the first place.

 2007/1/23 19:24Profile





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