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 Concerning God's Grace

charis, Greek 5485, Strong’s
charis, khar'-ece; from Greek 5463 (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Where, in the above, does it state that it is God's "unmerited" favor?

 2007/1/22 13:08
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Concerning God's Grace

Are you suggesting that man can do something to merit grace? Are you saying that grace is merited favor?

What do you make of Romans 11:5-6
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

 2007/1/22 15:06Profile









 Re:

I haven't suggested anything. I asked a question concerning the definition found in Strongs. I'm not here picking a fight. Can you answer my question? Can you find where it is God's unmerited favor? If not, .... what?

 2007/1/22 15:19
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I haven't suggested anything. I asked a question concerning the definition found in Strongs. I'm not here picking a fight. Can you answer my question? Can you find where it is God's unmerited favor? If not, .... what?

charis, Greek 5485, Strong’s
charis, khar'-ece; from Greek 5463 (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Where, in the above, does it state that it is God's "unmerited" favor?



It does not contain the words 'unmerited favor'. However, it is important to note the context in which it is used, especially when it refers to 'saving grace'. Please consider the verse I provided earlier.

Quote:
What do you make of Romans 11:5-6
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."



In the context of these verses Paul is stating that there is a remnant of Jewish people chosen by the charis (grace) of God. Paul then says that since it is by charis then it cannot be on the basis of works. Grace cannot be based on merit because if it is based on merit it becomes debt.

 2007/1/22 15:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
I haven't suggested anything. I asked a question concerning the definition found in Strongs. I'm not here picking a fight. Can you answer my question? Can you find where it is God's unmerited favor? If not, .... what?

charis, Greek 5485, Strong’s
charis, khar'-ece; from Greek 5463 (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Where, in the above, does it state that it is God's "unmerited" favor?



It does not contain the words 'unmerited favor'. However, it is important to note the context in which it is used, especially when it refers to 'saving grace'. Please consider the verse I provided earlier.

Quote:
What do you make of Romans 11:5-6
"So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."



In the context of these verses Paul is stating that there is a remnant of Jewish people chosen by the charis (grace) of God. Paul then says that since it is by charis then it cannot be on the basis of works. Grace cannot be based on merit because if it is based on merit it becomes debt.



But I didn't give a verse to be interpreted. I submitted a word and its definition. What does the word mean if Strongs doesn't have it right.

First rule in understanding anything written is to first let it say what it says, using correct definitions in the process. Ergo, one must let the word "grace" mean what it is defined to mean. If the word doesn't mean what we have been led to believe or has more depth of meaning than we are given to believe and it is taught us, by commentary, in a way that can't be reconciled with its actual definition, there must be something else at work in the commentary making the verse say something other than intended by the writer of the verse[s] presented us.

Here are just a few verses you may wish to ponder before you say it is not unmerited and yet I know that it can be and is, however, our understanding of when it is and when it isn't, will be a point of contention:

Genesis 6:8 (KJV)
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 19:19 (KJV)
Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Genesis 32:5 (KJV)
And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.

Genesis 33:8 (KJV)
And he said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he said, These are to find grace in the sight of my lord.

Genesis 33:10 (KJV)
And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.



 2007/1/22 16:22
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re: Concerning God's Grace

Hey Brother,

You wrote:

Quote:
charis, Greek 5485, Strong’s
charis, khar'-ece; from Greek 5463 (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, [b]grace[/b] (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Where, in the above, does it state that it is God's "unmerited" favor?



I placed in bold one of the words that it's translated as. Grace has as one of it's meanings "unmerited favor".

Here is the second potential definition of "grace" as provided by Webster's dictionary:

Quote:
2. Appropriately, the free unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from him.

And if by grace,then it is no more of works. Rom 11.



So if the word is translated as "grace" and "grace" has as a potential meaning "unmerited favor" then it is appropriate to say that "charis" can mean "unmerited favor".

Hope this helps.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


_________________
SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2007/1/22 16:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:

hulsey wrote:
Hey Brother,

You wrote:
Quote:
charis, Greek 5485, Strong’s
charis, khar'-ece; from Greek 5463 (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, [b]grace[/b] (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Where, in the above, does it state that it is God's "unmerited" favor?



I placed in bold one of the words that it's translated as. Grace has as one of it's meanings "unmerited favor".

Here is the second potential definition of "grace" as provided by Webster's dictionary:

Quote:
2. Appropriately, the free unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from him.

And if by grace,then it is no more of works. Rom 11.



So if the word is translated as "grace" and "grace" has as a potential meaning "unmerited favor" then it is appropriate to say that "charis" can mean "unmerited favor".

Hope this helps.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey



According Webster, that may be so, but when did Webster become an authority on Biblical definitions?

If choice is between Webster and Strongs which way will you lean when seekin the truth of God's word? Whose meaning carries more weight? You don't know but that Webster's may have written by someone who grew up with nothing but Calvin's view of scripture, throwing objectivity to the wind.

 2007/1/22 16:53
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Please respond to Romans 11:5-6 before we go any further. Please tell me what Paul means by "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."

 2007/1/22 16:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Please respond to Romans 11:5-6 before we go any further. Please tell me what Paul means by "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace."



No... I'm not interested what Paul is saying there or any place else. This has nothing to do with Paul. It has everything to do with Strongs definition of Grace. Why can't you see that... perhaps you don't want to? Aren't you capable of being objective?

 2007/1/22 16:56
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
No... I'm not interested what Paul is saying there or any place else. This has nothing to do with Paul. It has everything to do with Strongs definition of Grace. Why can't you see that... perhaps you don't want to? Aren't you capable of being objective?



I cannot speak for Strong's definition of Grace. You must forgive me for failing to answer your question. I am trying hard not to be sarcastic here, but I tend to go to scripture for answers to questions such as these to let the men inspired by God speak for themselves.

 2007/1/22 18:32Profile





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