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sdb
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Joined: 2003/7/4
Posts: 129
tucson

 smith wigglesworth

:roll: Has anyone heard of Smith Wigglesworth and his ministry at the turn of the century? My question is is was he for real, can't find much on the internet in regards to his ministry or even basic critiques about the man himself. To me his ministry and the things he had accomplished(tons of miraculous healings) seem to bizarre for me to believe, but i talk to other people who feel that all that was done in his ministry was true......

 2003/7/18 9:55Profile
TaKa
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Joined: 2003/4/17
Posts: 124
Louisiana

 Re: smith wigglesworth

I believe Smith Wigglesworth was for real, but I've only read a few books about his life. I was impressed with the love he had for soulwinning and for young people. The only negative thing I can say about the books I've read on him are that they might have gone a little overboard on emphasizing signs and wonders.


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Troy

 2003/7/18 10:29Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: smith wigglesworth

What little I know is that my wife loves him, she is really big on healing, probably has a half dozen of his books....I have yet to read any of his stuff, but will say that my first 'impression' was to write him off because of some of the things I had 'heard' in connection with some of 'word of faith' teachers. But, as in most things I am begining to learn to be a good Berean and "see if these things are true", that is, do they square with scripture as far as what is being taught...
What really shut my mouth was hearing Leonard Ravenhill make mention of him and A.W. Tozer (men who I have high esteem towards) in the same breath, if I am not mistaken, and that caused me to realize that I was taking others opinions at face value without looking into it myself.
Anybody else out there? How about Kathreen Kullman(Spelling?), John G. Lake, A.B.Simpson,?
I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that there is a thread woven through some of these men, don't know if it's by era, thought, affiliation...seen some other posts linking names together, but maybe somebody here could flesh it out better.

_/crsschk\_


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Mike Balog

 2003/7/18 10:30Profile
TaKa
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Joined: 2003/4/17
Posts: 124
Louisiana

 Re: Wigglesworth

Yes, I'm always curious about those who overemphasize gifts of the Spirit like healing.

Sometimes I'm cautious to endorse certain preachers because of all the crazy stuff that's been going on with the Assemblies of God (my denomination) and the Toronto/Brownsville thing.

But yes, I believe it's always good to test the spirits to see if they be of God before we make our own judgements.

I've heard some bad stuff about Katherine Kullman and John G. Lake, and I've only seen a small video clip of Katherine Kullman, so I can't really say what I think about them.

I think healing is good, but the main focus of any ministry should be salvation and discipleship, and training mature believers to make disciples.


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Troy

 2003/7/18 10:38Profile
Jason
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Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138


 Re:

Of all the "healing ministry" people, Smith Wigglesworth is the one that I have the most agreement with.

 2003/7/18 13:41Profile
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Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Of all the "healing ministry" people, Smith Wigglesworth is the one that I have the most agreement with.


Me too! I appreciate him because as far as I know he was a man of the word, here is quote by him:

"There are four principles we need to maintain:
1st: [b]Read[/b] the Word of God
2nd: [b]Consume[/b] the Word of God until It [i]consumes[/i] YOU
3rd: [b]Believe[/b] the Word of [b]God[/b]
4th: [b]Act[/b] on the Word of God!"

"I believe in the Holy Ghost. And I believe that God gave us the Holy Ghost for true Son-Likeness, Son-expressiveness, and [b]enforcement[/b] of that expression"


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2003/7/18 14:42Profile
sdb
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Joined: 2003/7/4
Posts: 129
tucson

 Re: I have a question about healing....

If God says that he can and will heal us and we know that he has the ability, and it is our position to believe that we can be healed, what happens if that physical healing doesn't occur....who is at fault (if anybody) is it the believer who did'nt have enough faith or is it Gods will alone that a healing may not come. I've wondered this for a very long time.....I had a good brother in the Lord that died of Luekemia over a year ago, he believed that God would heal him, to the point that he never made any final arrangements about any of his finances (fearing this was doubt in his belief). He did die, and left a huge mess for his wife financially as well as a big hole of doubt as to what went wrong. The premise that she felt was their faith may not have been as strong as it should have been, resulting in guilt and condemnation for herself.
It is Gods desire that we be healed but what if it does'nt happen who is at fault?

 2003/7/19 0:39Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

This is exactly the problem that I have with this whole issue, may I come along side you as opposed to offering up an incomplete answer.
Purpose.
That's what comes to mind.Best I can tell, God always does things for a purpose and we don't always know what that purpose is.
Surely, we have our part to do in being obedient and living a life that is pleasing to our Lord, having faith (Hebrews 10:6).

But, does doing all that guarentee our 'healing'?
Look at Job, he was a man who "there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil"(Job 1:8)
After all he had gone through, in the end the Lord restored everything and then some.
But, like the leepers who were cleansed, the blind man who's sight was restored, the cripples, the 'demoniac', all of these were 'healed' for a time and yet all of them still died.
So ultimately what is of the most importance in being 'healed'? And, just what exactly is/was provided for us all in the verse that a lot of teaching seems to tell us is 'provided for', namely Isaiah 53:5 "And by His stripes we are healed"

Since sickness is a result of the original sin and sin has been passed down to us all from Adam on....ultimately, we can never be totally 'healed' until we get to glory and have escaped these natural, decaying skin suits that we are trapped in.

In the mean time for many of us (all) will be suffering to some extent or another. A lot of it is due to our own doing, (sin, trying to break fixed laws like gravity) some by no fault of own ( being in a building that get's hit by an airplane). And some of it even for Jesus sake, which is glorious to some of us, to be counted worthy to suffer for Him.

There is a lot more questions than answers for sure, and we could be 'healed' of some physical infirmity for awhile and still end up with our soul being cast into hell. Ultimate healing has to be the that Christ took on the penalty for our transgressions and provided the "purpose" for all that come to faith in Him, His death= our healing.
The whole assumption that lacking enough faith is the reason why some do not get 'healed' of a particular problem is ludicrous and it makes that 'holy indignation' rise up in me.It is one of the reasons I have such a hard time with these false prophets laying guilt trips on people with false hopes and in many cases destroying their faith, because they didn't have enough faith to 'receive their healing'.

"Can" and "Will"
Those two are what I usually come back to. This verse is what always springs to mind on this issue.
Daniel 3:16,17 (Regarding whether they would bow down and worship the gold idol) "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve [i][b]is able to deliver us [/b][/i] from the burning fiery furnace, and [i][b]He will deliver us [/b][/i]from your [i][b]hand[/b][/i], O king. [i][b]But if not[/b][/i], let it be known to you, O king that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up."

To my way of thinking, this is the the idea behind how we are to approach the issue.
"Can" God 'heal, or deliever' that's absurd to think otherwise, but "will" He in every instance?
Is there really something in scripture that makes us think we can hold Him to it, because He 'promised it' and we just have to "believe" or have enough "faith" and He is obligated to do what WE want? And of course the flip side would be that we are just making a convient excuse, letting God off the hook so to speak, when He dosen't 'heal' by saying "if it be thy will".

Yeah, I know what James 5:13 and following says, depending on which version your reading from. But can we issolate one verse from scripture and make a whole doctrine out of it ?(same goes for the Daniel verse I quoted, I know)

Seems best to me that we adhere to what is said as a whole in scripture, do our part, pray and 'let God be true and every man a liar".
If it is Gods will to be 'healed' temporarily, you can be assured that it will happen, if not than we have to assume He has His reasons for not granting it.

Since when did we become the ones who dictate to God what He is to do? I have never been able to grasp that concept. Besides, the most important "healing" we can ever receive is the precious healing of salvation that will outlast any temporal, earthbound suffering we may have to endure. The real healing is eternal.


I remember reading about a woman who was dying of cancer and she warned those around her not to tell her daughter that she 'would' be healed, even though she had the faith to believe she could be. She was more concerned that if her daughter was led to believe that she 'would' be healed and she ended up being taken from this earth, that her daughters faith would be destroyed.
I think she had the right perspective.

I know the lid is off the can of worms now and will gladly and humbly accept reproof and correction from those who are more knowledgeable on this subject.

_/crsschk\_


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Mike Balog

 2003/7/19 10:57Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re: I have a question about healing....

I have in my collection of books one by a man named Donald Gee. He was instramental in helping the Assemblies of God develope their systematic theology, including that on divine healing. He later wrote a book called "Trophimus I Left Sick--Our Problems With Divine Healing" He was trying to get the church to take a more balanced look at healing. It was published in the 50's when men like Oral Roberts and A. Allan were holding large "Healing" meetings. Here is a small section of that book; I hope it helps:

Was there some failure in Trophimus that necessitated Paul leaving him at Miletum sick? Had Trophimus been guilty of some disobedience to the Divine will? Or did Trophimus simply lack faith?
Those who want, somehow or other, to fit in this verse about the illness of Trophimus with their own doctrines of Divine healing are tempted to assert that he MUST (emphasis original) have failed somewhere. But that is the worst possible way of interpreting the Scriptures. There is nothing whatever in the statement, or in its context to suggest anything spiritually or morally wrong about Trophimus. Assumption here is completely gratuitous.
Part of the unfortunate manner in which faith in Divine healing sometimes has been sincerely promulgated by strong-minded personalities is this continual suggestion that failure to get healed is rooted in some deep spiritual failure in the one who is sick. The attitude has added mental suffering to physical suffering, and in extreme cases turned belief in Divine healing into a scourge rather than a privilege, and a burden rather than a relief. That it possesses an element of truth need not be denied. Even in natrual healing the patient has responsibilities. But to hold a doctrine of Divine healing that acts like a lash upon the heightened susceptbilities of the weak and sickly, surely comes near being a travesty of the compassion with which our Lord viewed the multitudes of sick folk that crowded around Him on earth.
Let there be confession of all known faults; let there be humble prayer for light on any hindrance to healing that obedience can remove; let faith be strengthened by the promises of the word of God and the testimonies of those Divinely healed; but let all this be done in love.... If no apparent reasons for failure to receive supernatural healing are made clear to the conscience or mind of the sufferer we have no recourse but to leave the case in the hands of our Heavenly Father--without condemnation of ourselves or others.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2003/7/19 13:37Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Excelent!
Much better stated.

Thanks Hulsey


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Mike Balog

 2003/7/19 20:42Profile





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