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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Without hostilities

Hi MC,

Had shelved a great deal of response last night, the other post and this one bleeding into each other... A couple of snips from your early thoughts;

Quote:
I was thinking if I came across a stranger out in the world who was reading the Message, and not knowing the state of their soul, I would be relatively encouraged.



All of a sudden I am reminded of;

Act 8:30 And Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

Quote:
For me the whole point of a bible is to trust in it. I think when we qualify a fuzzy and individualistic translation as a "paraphrase" we might be engaging in some slight of hand. We may paraphrase in our casual discussion but to formalize a "paraphrase" into a book seems harsh on the scriptures.



Good point.
Quote:
I don't think it can be stressed enough in regards to scripture...the more we try to 'break it down' for the natural man, the more we simply break it. There is a point where a soul must become hungry for the real thing. Slick packaging, fashion photography, and informal language create demand in the marketplace but the soul that truly hears the scriptures is not a finicky consumer...but a hungry beggar.


Couldn't agree more here brother.
Quote:
Case in point: America, the land of the choosy faithful. On our shelves we have more and more versions of "Bible Lite". My guess is that we'll keep seeing the bible xeroxed and licensed under trendy names, illustrated with Precious Moment cartoons with big sad eyes, butterflies, and puppy dogs, and covered in blue jean denim with zippers and snaps. My only question is if this is how we must consumerize the bible, aren't we bascially avoiding the reality that people really don't want to read it in the first place? I know Mr. Peterson meant well when he conceived of the idea and I'm sure the next fellow will mean well when he creates his own take on the bible. Yet I can't help but conclude that it's more of the same activity without accomplishment that's been present in the Church for a few decades.


I do believe you are correct here as well. [i]"..avoiding the reality that people really don't want to read it in the first place?[/i]"

Actually could just have clipped this whole thing, very well stated. The irony in all this for me is I do not even like this 'version' at all. To bring out a selection is just by way of example and perhaps more to just keep berating the same point of what is being exposed and expressed and too often ... pushed aside. In one sense a great deal of this whole controversy has nothing to do with bible versions at all even if they are the subject, it is something underneath it all that I am trying to draw attention to. Surely I would expect some emotional response by way of defending and contending for the truth ... but, there you have it, is this often what is really taking place? It is the leveraging and actually [i]compromise[/i] not of the scriptures per se but the same treatment being missed by what the scriptures [i]mean[/i]. An allowance of compromise because the [i]cause[/i] merits it, pretty sure that is a definition of pragmatism. The large problem is the compromise is of heart truths not necessarily 'word' truths. Hope that makes the right sense I am trying to give it. It is just very puzzling the amount of falsehood allowed defending ... the truth!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Had gone on rambling at that point...

Quote:
Perhaps in a reaction against dead textualism and lifeless fundamentalism many are now saying it doesn't matter as long as you mean well and are sincere. I can understand this sentiment very well.

This is perhaps just fine as long as we do not lose the point that the Message is still an inferior representation of the book it has descended from. (I don't think Peterson would ultimately disagree.) This is not to say it is worthless at all...only to say that it is not on par with better versions.



May be repeating myself here but could almost wish it was just ... produced as something other than a 'bible' as difficult as that sounds, in that sense it is, something [i]other[/i] than a proper version of course. Again, even Mr. Petersen himself said he doesn't read it, preferring the Greek and Hebrew texts. The passage I posted earlier wasn't even the one I was looking for, an elderly saint, a very dear woman I have some acquaintance with gave it to me some time back and recall coming across a section that .... sounded more extreme than in the KJV even. But, left it laying around the last day or so and ... it's difficult to read, I don't like it at all, I don't like the NIV very much either. Here, on SI and with the tremendously helpful www.e-sword.net (and do not some of us owe just a tremendous debt of gratitude for this!) it is wonderful to be able to compare and contrast between versions and even the search function ... Trying to find a particular verse, a word sticks in the thoughts and you can try it in the ASV, ISV, RV etc. etc. and almost always find the verse you are looking for ... Oh indeed we are [i]blessed[/i]. Like Tozer though, keep coming back to the trusty old version.

Quote:
Inferiority of translation is no small or unimportant distinction. If we were discussing the translation of any other literary author such as Jules Verne or Goethe, we would hardly accept an informal street-language version of their works.

Yet when it comes to the Bible, we have grown so sentimental and liberal over it's message that we hardly blush at the veritable explosion of new english language 'translations' we've been seeing. (Not to mention the vulgar pop culture merchandising of the scriptures.)



Agree wholeheartedly. Just flatly disagree with some of the tactics and ways of disagreement.... we have already been through all this, won't be starting it all back up again.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/20 20:32Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

c52 wrote:
So Ormly, you doubt the ability of the Holy Spirit to draw from "The Message" for purposes of His own?



Saw a documentary once that showed how to get a glass of drinkable water by urinating in a hole, putting a glass in the middle, covering with plastic, and putting a stone on the plastic directly over the glass. It worked by the suns heat condensing the water from the urine, leaving the salt behind, and the dripping into the glass as the condensation cools.

The sad thing is, some people seem to prefer this to drinking the bottled water in the frdige next to the hole.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/1/21 8:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

c52 wrote:
So Ormly, you doubt the ability of the Holy Spirit to draw from "The Message" for purposes of His own?



Saw a documentary once that showed how to get a glass of drinkable water by urinating in a hole, putting a glass in the middle, covering with plastic, and putting a stone on the plastic directly over the glass. It worked by the suns heat condensing the water from the urine, leaving the salt behind, and the dripping into the glass as the condensation cools.

The sad thing is, some people seem to prefer this to drinking the bottled water in the frdige next to the hole.



I find that to be so also, but why do suppose this to be aside from them saying that the KJV is just too difficult to understand, even after they receive understanding from someone. Is it laziness or personal spiritual bent? I sometimes think both. I also believe it can be pride also inasmuch as they want to be persuaded along a certain line..

 2007/1/21 8:53
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
I find that to be so also, but why do suppose this to be aside from them saying that the KJV is just too difficult to understand, even after they receive understanding from someone. Is it laziness or personal spiritual bent? I sometimes think both. I also believe it can be pride also inasmuch as they want to be persuaded along a certain line..



Interestingly, I had a friend who was a reader of the Message, an I pointed out to him the whole "thou/thou-you/ye" thing (thanks to Ron Bailey). One day he pisked one up, after often stating that he couldn't understand the old language, and realised that it was easier to follow that the Message. The fact of the matter is, the KJV has a smaller voculary, and there a few words that need to be learned.

Linn, I put it down to superstition, and our modernistic outlook. Ie, "If it's newer, it must be better."


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/1/21 9:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
I find that to be so also, but why do suppose this to be aside from them saying that the KJV is just too difficult to understand, even after they receive understanding from someone. Is it laziness or personal spiritual bent? I sometimes think both. I also believe it can be pride also inasmuch as they want to be persuaded along a certain line..



Interestingly, I had a friend who was a reader of the Message, an I pointed out to him the whole "thou/thou-you/ye" thing (thanks to Ron Bailey). One day he pisked one up, after often stating that he couldn't understand the old language, and realised that it was easier to follow that the Message. The fact of the matter is, the KJV has a smaller voculary, and there a few words that need to be learned.

Linn, I put it down to superstition, and our modernistic outlook. Ie, "If it's newer, it must be better."




Good observation that should encourage us to read it, exclusive of others, since so much truth is packed into fewer words, words that must be pursued for their richness. They are helps for us to achieve the fulness of God's message.

 2007/1/21 9:14
c52
Member



Joined: 2006/12/31
Posts: 44
Loveland, Co. USA

 Re:

No, not the name of a church. What is a "bubble-gum" church? What translation of "The Bible" do they use there? Are they (the members) "born-again" bubble-gummers? I am just curious...


_________________
Charles H Holston

 2007/1/21 20:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:

c52 wrote:
No, not the name of a church. What is a "bubble-gum" church? What translation of "The Bible" do they use there? Are they (the members) "born-again" bubble-gummers? I am just curious...



Entertainment instead of worship. Sloppy/No acknowledgement of even the idea God might be present in their midst. Cheap salvation for the world in the house that it can embrace without the revelation of Jesus Christ and the narrowness of all the revelation of Him reveals. A "McChurch" mentality, to sure.

 2007/1/22 7:23
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:



Interestingly, I had a friend who was a reader of the Message, an I pointed out to him the whole "thou/thou-you/ye" thing (thanks to Ron Bailey). One day he pisked one up, after often stating that he couldn't understand the old language, and realised that it was easier to follow that the Message. The fact of the matter is, the KJV has a smaller voculary, and there a few words that need to be learned.

Linn, I put it down to superstition, and our modernistic outlook. Ie, "If it's newer, it must be better."







i posted this quote from A W Tozer in another thread, i think it fits here to

"While it is important that the translations be accurate and faithful, yet better versions do not make better men."


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/1/22 7:28Profile





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