crsschk wrote:Quote:I asked this to be s study, not an argument. There should be no "bogging down", but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.That's fine brother. Seems that the original excerpted comment ought to be quantified from the context it was taken from and addressed to the writer by a link. I do recall it, but it would be much more helpful to take in all the surrounding context.
I asked this to be s study, not an argument. There should be no "bogging down", but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.
rookie wrote:Brother Ormly wrote:Quote: Grace is a gift of God to man that reveals Himself. Would you illustrate by the use of Scripture examples where God reveals Himself to those who are acted upon by His grace.In ChristJeff
Grace is a gift of God to man that reveals Himself.
Surely, Ormly, you best ensure that SIers understand grace, not merely by trying to get them to define it correctly, but letting them experience it as it emanates from you, as the outcome of your own communion with the Master. You define it by being a living illustration. Surely the more you know his abounding grace towards you, the more your words will radiate with grace. Then others could sense it for real, and be strengthened by it, and be drawn to the Giver of grace. Isnt that actually what you would wish?" 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved.." John Newton (Amazing Grace)Diane
If you are looking for experiences that temporarily satisfy,
I invite you to review Bible references concerning the use of the word grace:Genesis 6:8; Genesis 19:19; Genesis 32:5; Genesis 33:8; Genesis 33:10; Genesis 33:15; Genesis 34:11; Genesis 39:4; Genesis 47:25; Genesis 47:29; Genesis 50:4; Exodus 33:12-13; Exodus 33:16-17; Exodus 34:9; Numbers 32:5; Judges 6:17; Ruth 2:2; Ruth 2:10; 1 Samuel 1:18; 1 Samuel 20:3; 1 Samuel 27:5; 2 Samuel 14:22; 2 Samuel 16:4; Ezra 9:8; Esther 2:17; Psalm 45:2; Psalm 84:11; Proverbs 1:9; Proverbs 3:22; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 4:9; Proverbs 22:11;Jeremiah 31:2; Zech. 4:7; Zech. 12:10; Luke 2:40; John 1:14; John 1:16-17; Acts 4:33; Acts 11:23; Acts 13:43; Acts 14:3; Acts 14:26; Acts 15:11; Acts 15:40; Acts 18:27; Acts 20:24; Acts 20:32; Romans 1:5; Romans 1:7; Romans 3:24; Romans 4:4; Romans 4:16; Romans 5:2; Romans 5:15; Romans 5:17; Romans 5:20-6:1; Romans 6:14-15; Romans 11:5-6; Romans 12:3; Romans 12:6; Romans 15:15; Romans 16:20; Romans 16:24; 1 Cor. 1:3-4; 1 Cor. 3:10; 1 Cor. 10:30; 1 Cor. 15:10; 1 Cor. 16:23; 2 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:12; 2 Cor. 4:15; 2 Cor. 6:1; 2 Cor. 8:1; 2 Cor. 8:6-7; 2 Cor. 8:9; 2 Cor. 8:19; 2 Cor. 9:8; 2 Cor. 9:14; 2 Cor. 12:9; 2 Cor. 13:14; Galatians 1:3; Galatians 1:6; Galatians 1:15; Galatians 2:9; Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:4; Galatians 6:18; Ephes. 1:2; Ephes. 1:6-7; Ephes. 2:5; Ephes. 2:7-8; Ephes. 3:2; Ephes. 3:7-8; Ephes. 4:7; Ephes. 4:29; Ephes. 6:24; Philip. 1:2; Philip. 1:7; Philip. 4:23; Col. 1:2; Col. 1:6; Col. 3:16; Col. 4:6; Col. 4:18; 1 Thes. 1:1; 1 Thes. 5:28; 2 Thes. 1:2; 2 Thes. 1:12; 2 Thes. 2:16; 2 Thes. 3:18; 1 Tim. 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:14; 1 Tim. 6:21; 2 Tim. 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Tim. 2:1; 2 Tim. 4:22; Titus 1:4; Titus 2:11; Titus 3:7; Titus 3:15; Philemon 1:3; Philemon 1:25; Hebrews 2:9; Hebrews 4:16; Hebrews 10:29; Hebrews 12:15; Hebrews 12:28; Hebrews 13:9; Hebrews 13:25; James 1:11; James 4:6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 1:10; 1 Peter 1:13; 1 Peter 3:7; 1 Peter 4:10; 1 Peter 5:5; 1 Peter 5:10; 1 Peter 5:12; 2 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:18; 2 John 1:3; Jude 1:4; Rev. 1:4; Rev. 22:21;
I understand, however, it is/was not my intention to single out one's error nor the specifics in which it was addressed but rather the teaching in general that has left many with questions that can't be reconciled given the teaching they embrace. "Tulip" comes quickly to mind.
given the teaching they embrace
"Tulip" comes quickly to mind
"The teaching in general"
I asked this to be s study, not an argument.
but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.
I absolutely agree that Grace (or any Truth in the Bible) must be experienced. This is sanctification. If we do not experience Truth then it is simply knowledge that puffs up.To know Jesus is to experience Him. That is what Romans 5: 2-5 is all about. In the enduring under of our suffering, we experience His salvation, we experience the Life of Jesus Christ first hand, and it is through that experience that His life (love) is shed abroad in our hearts.I must and I have experienced His Grace through: - hearing the preached word - receiving a gift from a brother or sister - Counseling with pastors through difficulties in our marriage - reading the bible - experiencing His presence in prayer - seeing Him deliver me from lies - seeing how other Christians have reached out to me and loved me - Etc.Again, all Truth must be experienced if we are going to really know what it means.----------------------------------------------On the flip side, I also agree that Grace must be defined properly. I cannot define something by my experience. I must define my experience by the Truth of the Word. My experience confirms the Word.Roadsign, why would you experience God's Love through those women? Why, when you heard them preach, did it warm your heart and draw you closer to God? Why was your confidence in Him strengthened?The answer to those questions lies in how we define the word Grace.Do we experience Him, as you did in that service, because: - We prayed today - We obeyed Him completely today - We are " on fire" for Him - We have a burden for the lost - We have " hearts for God" - We seek him with all of our heartsDoes are experience of Jesus Christ and He revealing Himself to us, have anything to do with who WE ARE?To define Grace improperly such as:
Grace is God's supernatural enabling that makes it possible to be saved,.............And agape love requires absolute honesty, and therefore is conditional."
Does are experience of Jesus Christ and He revealing Himself to us, have anything to do with who WE ARE?
crsschk wrote:Quote:I understand, however, it is/was not my intention to single out one's error nor the specifics in which it was addressed but rather the teaching in general that has left many with questions that can't be reconciled given the teaching they embrace. "Tulip" comes quickly to mind.Orm, we have come to understand that your explanations sometimes are somewhat confusing and would only add far less than my own. Coming back to things after once again reconsidering I often find myself thinking; [i]"Well that's just [u]poor[/u][/i]". In other words, I knew what I meant to say, but somehow it got completely mangled in the translation and outworking.
That's a loaded assumption is it not?
Calvinism. Fine. Am not being argumentative, perhaps didactic, something is wanting to vocalize "Unfair!" here.
Bluntly, where did you grab this quote from? Again, I do recall it but cannot place which thread it is from. It's context I think is necessary if you wish to use the word [b]they[/b] as the assumption and basis on to Calvinism ... You are making this a bit too vague and not really allowing the person who made the statement any recourse of rebuttal and\or clarification unless he or she happens upon this posting. There may be no clarification on their part whatsoever and your assumptions absolutely correct. Something rises up that this is a very improper way of going about things, excerpting and making accusation and inference even if that is not your stated purpose, it comes across that way. Just the link and reference, the context. I would very much like to hear the owner of that statements response as applies here because it may very well help towards the direction your are aiming with all this.
Grace is a gift of God and faith is an enablement of man from creation to believe..