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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Grace by Faith, A Much Needed Study

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 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
I asked this to be s study, not an argument. There should be no "bogging down", but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.


That's fine brother. Seems that the original excerpted comment ought to be quantified from the context it was taken from and addressed to the writer by a link. I do recall it, but it would be much more helpful to take in all the surrounding context.




I understand, however, it is/was not my intention to single out one's error nor the specifics in which it was addressed but rather the teaching in general that has left many with questions that can't be reconciled given the teaching they embrace. "Tulip" comes quickly to mind.

 2007/1/15 6:14









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Ormly wrote:

Quote:
Grace is a gift of God to man that reveals Himself.



Would you illustrate by the use of Scripture examples where God reveals Himself to those who are acted upon by His grace.

In Christ
Jeff



Is scripture needed for your answer? Perhaps only so that it can be explained.
Is God's Grace so specific, seen only in specific instances by a priviledged few, that one cannot see it to embrace it? Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draw him". Grace does the drawing while faith takes him there.

 2007/1/15 6:22









 Re:

Quote:
Surely, Ormly, you best ensure that SIers understand grace, not merely by trying to get them to define it correctly, but letting them experience it as it emanates from you, as the outcome of your own communion with the Master. You define it by being a living illustration. Surely the more you know his abounding grace towards you, the more your words will radiate with grace. Then others could sense it for real, and be strengthened by it, and be drawn to the Giver of grace. Isn’t that actually what you would wish?

" 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
and grace my fears relieved.."
John Newton (Amazing Grace)

Diane



In a word, NO. If you are looking for experiences that temporarily satisfy, you will surely find them. They are legion.

Grace says, "Follow Me", I will lead you to the one who saves. Other voices, which are many, just say, "follow me".

 2007/1/15 6:30
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: grace must be experienced

Quote:
If you are looking for experiences that temporarily satisfy,


I am speaking about the real thing vs mere talk about the thing. In other words, we can kill grace in our conversations about grace if grace is absent in our manner of relating to one another. Then trying to discuss its meaning is more like a blind man trying to explaining color to another blind man.

Of course that can be said about any concept taught in the Bible. Imagine a discussion about mercy if we are not merciful to one another in our converstaions. Imagine having a converstation about joy when everybody is mad at each other.

See my drift? If we want to explain something we best desmonstrate it by living it and in it.

That's why I quoted John Newton's words in Amazing Grace. He defined grace by sharing his experience of it in a song. And what a lovely hymn his words made! I am sure that those who knew this changed man experienced grace and understood it more through his manner of relating with them than through his all of sermons on grace.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/1/15 8:48Profile









 Re:

I invite you to review Bible references concerning the use of the word grace:

Genesis 6:8;
Genesis 19:19;
Genesis 32:5;
Genesis 33:8;
Genesis 33:10;
Genesis 33:15;
Genesis 34:11;
Genesis 39:4;
Genesis 47:25;
Genesis 47:29;
Genesis 50:4;

Exodus 33:12-13;
Exodus 33:16-17;
Exodus 34:9;

Numbers 32:5;

Judges 6:17;

Ruth 2:2;
Ruth 2:10;

1 Samuel 1:18;
1 Samuel 20:3;
1 Samuel 27:5;

2 Samuel 14:22;
2 Samuel 16:4;

Ezra 9:8;

Esther 2:17;

Psalm 45:2;
Psalm 84:11;

Proverbs 1:9;

Proverbs 3:22;
Proverbs 3:34;
Proverbs 4:9;
Proverbs 22:11;

Jeremiah 31:2;

Zech. 4:7;
Zech. 12:10;

Luke 2:40;

John 1:14;
John 1:16-17;

Acts 4:33;
Acts 11:23;
Acts 13:43;
Acts 14:3;
Acts 14:26;
Acts 15:11;
Acts 15:40;
Acts 18:27;
Acts 20:24;
Acts 20:32;

Romans 1:5;
Romans 1:7;
Romans 3:24;
Romans 4:4;
Romans 4:16;
Romans 5:2;
Romans 5:15;
Romans 5:17;
Romans 5:20-6:1;
Romans 6:14-15;
Romans 11:5-6;
Romans 12:3;
Romans 12:6;
Romans 15:15;
Romans 16:20;
Romans 16:24;

1 Cor. 1:3-4;
1 Cor. 3:10;
1 Cor. 10:30;
1 Cor. 15:10;
1 Cor. 16:23;

2 Cor. 1:2;
2 Cor. 1:12;
2 Cor. 4:15;
2 Cor. 6:1;
2 Cor. 8:1;
2 Cor. 8:6-7;
2 Cor. 8:9;
2 Cor. 8:19;
2 Cor. 9:8;
2 Cor. 9:14;
2 Cor. 12:9;
2 Cor. 13:14;

Galatians 1:3;
Galatians 1:6;
Galatians 1:15;
Galatians 2:9;
Galatians 2:21;
Galatians 5:4;
Galatians 6:18;

Ephes. 1:2;
Ephes. 1:6-7;
Ephes. 2:5;
Ephes. 2:7-8;
Ephes. 3:2;
Ephes. 3:7-8;
Ephes. 4:7;
Ephes. 4:29;
Ephes. 6:24;

Philip. 1:2;
Philip. 1:7;
Philip. 4:23;

Col. 1:2;
Col. 1:6;
Col. 3:16;
Col. 4:6;
Col. 4:18;

1 Thes. 1:1;
1 Thes. 5:28;

2 Thes. 1:2;
2 Thes. 1:12;
2 Thes. 2:16;
2 Thes. 3:18;

1 Tim. 1:2;
1 Tim. 1:14;
1 Tim. 6:21;

2 Tim. 1:2;
2 Tim. 1:9;
2 Tim. 2:1;
2 Tim. 4:22;

Titus 1:4;
Titus 2:11;
Titus 3:7;
Titus 3:15;

Philemon 1:3;
Philemon 1:25;

Hebrews 2:9;
Hebrews 4:16;
Hebrews 10:29;
Hebrews 12:15;
Hebrews 12:28;
Hebrews 13:9;
Hebrews 13:25;

James 1:11;
James 4:6;

1 Peter 1:2;
1 Peter 1:10;
1 Peter 1:13;
1 Peter 3:7;
1 Peter 4:10;
1 Peter 5:5;
1 Peter 5:10;
1 Peter 5:12;

2 Peter 1:2;
2 Peter 3:18;

2 John 1:3;

Jude 1:4;

Rev. 1:4;
Rev. 22:21;

 2007/1/15 9:45
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Up to the challenge

Quote:
I understand, however, it is/was not my intention to single out one's error nor the specifics in which it was addressed but rather the teaching in general that has left many with questions that can't be reconciled given the teaching they embrace. "Tulip" comes quickly to mind.



Orm, we have come to understand that your explanations sometimes are somewhat confusing and would only add far less than my own. Coming back to things after once again reconsidering I often find myself thinking; [i]"Well that's just [u]poor[/u][/i]". In other words, I knew what I meant to say, but somehow it got completely mangled in the translation and outworking.

Quote:
given the teaching they embrace


That's a loaded assumption is it not?
Quote:
"Tulip" comes quickly to mind


Calvinism. Fine. Am not being argumentative, perhaps didactic, something is wanting to vocalize "Unfair!" here. Bluntly, where did you grab this quote from? Again, I do recall it but cannot place which thread it is from. It's context I think is necessary if you wish to use the word [b]they[/b] as the assumption and basis on to Calvinism ... You are making this a bit too vague and not really allowing the person who made the statement any recourse of rebuttal and\or clarification unless he or she happens upon this posting. There may be no clarification on their part whatsoever and your assumptions absolutely correct. Something rises up that this is a very improper way of going about things, excerpting and making accusation and inference even if that is not your stated purpose, it comes across that way. Just the link and reference, the context. I would very much like to hear the owner of that statements response as applies here because it may very well help towards the direction your are aiming with all this.

Quote:
"The teaching in general"



Ah yes. Moving on ahead of all that pleading ...
Quote:
I asked this to be s study, not an argument.

Agreed!
Quote:
but a challenge to anyone to search the scriptures and make better distinctions.

Nothing more warms the heart and stirs the spirit than this brother. The great reconsidering, challenge is a great thing sans hostility and if anything to cause us all to just sweat our brains, challenge our notions and ...

[i]make better distinctions[/i] ! Very much like the way you put that.

Romans, Chapter 8 through Chapter 11 this morning. And the dwelling once again on [i]predestination[/i] and election, foreknowledge, calling ... And then come all the tremendous other words; Faith, mercy ... [i]grace[/i].

So much I could say, so much still percolating. My loosely held suspicion of divine mystery hasn't been shaken off it's moorings but even more cemented in that mystery ... Always the wiggle room nonetheless.

Ravenhill's description of Paul's great intellect came up revisiting this again as if for the very first time. And the sense was one of breaking out into an inward smile as [i]"Oh this makes perfect sense ... and I will never be able to explain it!"[/i]

That we would always read things through in their context, the [i]whole[/i] thought, from beginning to end, and that also means having to travel backwards to pick up the dialouge or discourse to at least some point of reference and then regaining back on to the train of thought until it is 'finished'.

I am exuding here in that regular rambling fashion, my apologies that brevity still escapes me. Rather than step all over the path you are laying out here regarding grace and faith and how you may be wishing to extract all this ...

[i]Who are you ...?[/i]" Says Paul.
[i]What shall we say then?"[/i]
[i]"Why have you made me like this"?[/i]
[i]"Is God unrighteous?"[/i]
[i]"Do not say in your heart...[/i]"

The branches and the root, the casting off and grafting in. [i]Be not haughty, but fear.[/i]

There is just so much pure theology answered and explained within these few chapters ... everything from the classic OSAS, to all the argument of predestination and election ... Have mentioned this before but there is something of a switch off when it comes to being a bit too scientific in dissecting the scriptures as if we could extract the very DNA from it and create our own development, a perfect understanding and explanation. The beauty of Paul's 'intellect' is that it is spiritual of course but also that he does not strip mine out the mystery of God. [i]Hard to understand[/i] as Peter spoke and the twisting thereof by the unstable ... aren't we all in some fashion? Perhaps the difference only being in the measure of admittance and honesty.

Let me cut myself off here. The word that truly jumped out at me as the great consideration of what might be meant by all the foreknowledge of God and His great mercy and grace ... where this whole idea of 'fixed' determination is suspect the way it can be couched in terms of election ...

[i]Provocation[/i].


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/15 10:09Profile









 Re: Grace must be experienced

I absolutely agree that Grace (or any Truth in the Bible) must be experienced. This is sanctification. If we do not experience Truth then it is simply knowledge that puffs up.

To know Jesus is to experience Him. That is what Romans 5: 2-5 is all about. In the enduring under of our suffering, we experience His salvation, we experience the Life of Jesus Christ first hand, and it is through that experience that His life (love) is shed abroad in our hearts.

I must and I have experienced His Grace through:

- hearing the preached word
- receiving a gift from a brother or sister
- Counseling with pastors through difficulties in our marriage
- reading the bible
- experiencing His presence
in prayer
- seeing Him deliver me from lies
- seeing how other Christians have reached out to me and loved me
- Etc.

Again, all Truth must be experienced if we are going to really know what it means.

----------------------------------------------

On the flip side, I also agree that Grace must be defined properly. I cannot define something by my experience. I must define my experience by the Truth of the Word. My experience confirms the Word.

Roadsign, why would you experience God's Love through those women? Why, when you heard them preach, did it warm your heart and draw you closer to God? Why was your confidence in Him strengthened?

The answer to those questions lies in how we define the word Grace.

Do we experience Him, as you did in that service, because:

- We prayed today
- We obeyed Him completely today
- We are " on fire" for Him
- We have a burden for the lost
- We have " hearts for God"
- We seek him with all of our hearts

Does are experience of Jesus Christ and He revealing Himself to us, have anything to do with who WE ARE?

To define Grace improperly such as:

Quote:
Grace is God's supernatural enabling that makes it possible to be saved,.............And agape love requires absolute honesty, and therefore is conditional."



This can send Christians ( and did send me) on a never ending treadmill of trying to please God.
The Truth of the matter is that God is already pleased with us because we are " in His Son".

And, therefore, all that we receive from Him is a gift based upon Him being pleased with Jesus Christ.

(Roadsign, FYI, I am not trying to teach you anything that you probably don't already know...from looking at your posts I am sure you could teach me and have taught me many things. I am just expressing my thoughts)

It is impossible for a man or woman to be gracious unless they have experienced the True Grace of God. I cannot give something I do not have, and Grace as defined in Christ is not found in me. I must receive it...freely!

So let us keep this post going, and truly define the Grace of God based upon the Word and confirm it by our experiences.

 2007/1/15 10:18
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: experiencing grace

Quote:
Does are experience of Jesus Christ and He revealing Himself to us, have anything to do with who WE ARE?



Mahoney, you are good at fine-tuning ideas! This is a great question.

Of course, personal receptivity is needed. I admit that I need to trust God’s grace and goodness regardless of whom I am with or what church I am in. But if those ministering to me don’t have it to give, I’m sure not going to get it from them! And neither will any one else there.

God has called us to communicate his nature by having his nature, not merely by explaining his nature. If we are not seasoned with grace, how can we be the salt of the earth? Might I suggest that one’s inability to extend grace towards others is a sign that God’s grace is not being experienced in that person’s life.

Something to ponder:
How do I experience God's grace?
Do others see God's grace through me?


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/1/15 12:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
I understand, however, it is/was not my intention to single out one's error nor the specifics in which it was addressed but rather the teaching in general that has left many with questions that can't be reconciled given the teaching they embrace. "Tulip" comes quickly to mind.



Orm, we have come to understand that your explanations sometimes are somewhat confusing and would only add far less than my own. Coming back to things after once again reconsidering I often find myself thinking; [i]"Well that's just [u]poor[/u][/i]". In other words, I knew what I meant to say, but somehow it got completely mangled in the translation and outworking.



Yes, I know what you mean. Sometimes we see more than we can express. I don't know whether that's good or bad. We want so much for everyone to profit by what we see, eh?

Quote:
given the teaching they embrace


Quote:
That's a loaded assumption is it not?



Not quite sure what you mean by "loaded assumption" but I do know "they", the Calvinists of most any stripe, are locked in their thinking, leaving them in a conundrum; to easily they dismiss as God's sovereignity anything they can sort out....and refuse to.

Quote:
"Tulip" comes quickly to mind



Quote:
Calvinism. Fine. Am not being argumentative, perhaps didactic, something is wanting to vocalize "Unfair!" here.



Perhaps so. I just came away from discussions with an intectual book critiquer who is "locked" in Tulip believing Calvinism IS the gospel. Oh, the questions he couldn't answer and the obstinacy in his disposition.

Quote:
Bluntly, where did you grab this quote from? Again, I do recall it but cannot place which thread it is from. It's context I think is necessary if you wish to use the word [b]they[/b] as the assumption and basis on to Calvinism ... You are making this a bit too vague and not really allowing the person who made the statement any recourse of rebuttal and\or clarification unless he or she happens upon this posting. There may be no clarification on their part whatsoever and your assumptions absolutely correct. Something rises up that this is a very improper way of going about things, excerpting and making accusation and inference even if that is not your stated purpose, it comes across that way. Just the link and reference, the context. I would very much like to hear the owner of that statements response as applies here because it may very well help towards the direction your are aiming with all this.



Please take it on face value since I can't recall either. I apologize to you for my shortsightedness. However, the substance of the post, to me, is irrelevant. The quote can be argued on its own merit as to its truth or error. That is all I wished to call attention to; i.e., Grace is a gift of God and faith is an enablement of man from creation to believe..
May the scriptures be examined by those concerned as to whether I am right or wrong since so much hangs in the balance. If correct, and I believe I am, so much can be rectified in our thinking concerning intimacy with the Father. The Lord is coming for a bride without spot or wrinkle. May we all be found in His Grace, seeking His intimacy.

I'm not interested in any experience. His Grace is sufficient for me.:-)

Thank you for the rest of your post.

Orm

 2007/1/15 18:46
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Quote:
Grace is a gift of God and faith is an enablement of man from creation to believe..



This is simply put but rather sound.

Grace, I love this word, hearing of it, reading of it, and most definitely living by it..moment by moment.

I feel that while God sustains His children's life through eternity by Grace, He maintains this life of ours by giving us faith. How marvellous HE is to us indeed, also, how unimaginable for any of us if He hadn't given us His Word!!

Yes, His Grace is more than sufficient for me.

Thank you Orm for all those verses you posted to remind me of His Grace, yes, and that shows me His grace in you.

May God bless you more so each day!

mamaluk


 2007/1/15 22:32Profile





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