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Discussion Forum : General Topics : The wicked church in America

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Your point cannot be stated any clearer than that.
I thank you for expressing what is also in my heart? I do think it is an honest question/ topic that needs to be discussed because it goes to the heart of who God really is.

 2007/1/15 10:47

Joined: 2006/10/25
Posts: 25


JaySaved and Mahoney: I agree with you.

In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3: Jesus criticizes a Church that:

#1: It Is His Church, not ours: He purchased it with His blood.

#2 He is building it. And according to the Vision of Chapter 1 and His explanation of that vision:

** He remains in the midst. In other words He shows up and participates and serves so to speak in His Church.

**He has called and takes responsibility for leaders He has appointed.

#3 He Brings the Hope of Restoration and Renewal to those He Rebukes and Calls to Repentance: (The Overcomers)

**The "Overcomers" are not some super spiritual elitist extra credit group of people.

** Jesus reminds them of the joy and promise of eternal reward when he returns and establishes His Visible Kingdom.

#4 Rather than calling one to speak first, He calls us all to have an ear to hear what the Spirit is Saying to the Churches.

Really these Chapters in the Bible establish for us the true authority and doctrine of "Revival" from Jesus Christ Himself in His Church.

I have shared and explained these principles to many who merely give lip service to them rather than listen, learn them, submit to and follow them:

The Lord: In His Church: Building Up His Church: In His Way.

It takes a concerted effort to pursue humility to submit to Jesus Christ in this way.

I sense that you two and (I am sure others) also see this example of Jesus and are working for Revival the "Lord's way", not using Revival as an excuse to blame others for a sense of personal discontentment or struggle.

It takes perseverance in godliness and brotherly kindness to "respond" to the issues in our local church fellowships "rightly dividing the word of truth" rather than continually react in the moment to the wrongs of others.

Blessings to you all in your "labor of love, work of faith and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father."


 2007/1/15 12:01Profile

Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


i'm bringing this up again not because i wish to stir up trouble but because the content of this thread has disturbed me to seeking/talking to our Lord about this a lot ... i believe He's answered me to my satisfaction, but i wonder if any of you would have some thoughts (pro or con) ...

First off the "repentance" mission that i've been on for so long i believe is not my mission, but the one He's chosen for me ... So it seems to me that Holy Spirit, by this very thread, is making it even clearer the reasons why such as myself experience such non-chalance and oft irritability from so many saints regarding spouting our dire need for serious Joel 1 & 2 type repenting ...

i knew the reasons before had to do a lot with most not thinking we're really in need of such drastic measures, but this thread has allowed Him to take me one step further ... You know it's one thing to be blinded to our spiritual needs as He sees them, but it's a whole different ball of wax to dare "speak" our own self-approval (commendation) back at Him as proof of our being in need of nothing - not even from Him ... You know i, like most folk, who see the American segment as needing repentance for being primarily like Laodicea, has let our Ephesus element slip me all together ... With them Christ "commended" for all the wonderful works they we're doing, but their "motivation" and "priority" He called out as lacking purity ... He asked in essence, "Who are you doing all that you do for, and has what you're doing taken priority over what I told You to do? ...

[b]My questions are these? ...

1 - Who are any of us, and do we scripturally, spiritually and positionally under Christ have the right, to "commend" ourselves individually, or collectively as a Church, as sufficiently "repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on our knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people", or to "commend" to sufficiency that "the church in America loves God" and that "God is pleased with the church in America."?...

2 - If Isaiah 64:6 states that "all our righteous acts are as filthy rags" before Him, 1 Cor. 6:19,20 that "ye are not your own - for ye are bought with a price", Rom.3:10 that "There is none righteous, no, not one, Rom.3:23 that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God", Rom.12:3 that" every man not think of himself more highly than he ought to think", Gal.6:3 that "if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself", Gal.6:9 to "let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not", Eph.2: 8,9 that "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast", is there any room for any of us to scripturally, spiritually, and positionally under Christ to have the right, to "commend" ourselves individually, or collectively as a Church, as sufficiently pleasing to Him at any stage of our existence here on earth?...

3 - Or is any "commendation" to ourselves individually*, and collectively as His Church**, soley His domain, and His alone, as seemingly pointed out in Matt. 25:21* and Rev. chapters 1 thru 3**? ...

4 - In our apparent taking on of the ability to "commend" ourselves in the things of Christ individually, congregationally, American church nationally, and/or Church international, do you think we put ourselves in danger to not being able to hear/see the warnings the Spirit is saying to the 5 type churches spoken of in Rev. chapters 2 & 3? ...

5 - Do you think it possible that if we become self commended that we will become weary of His definition of "well doing", in trade off to a "well doing" much more suitable and palatable to our flesh? ...

6 - Do you think that our apparently taking on the ability to "commend" our selves in the things of Christ have put us in danger (like so many of our political leaders) of becoming "self-righteous" to the point that we've become blind to how He sees us? ...

7 - If we are to take up our cross daily, look unto Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith, keep in constant mind that it is He and He alone who is able to keep us from falling, and to present us faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, where at all do we fit in to commend ourselves in anything, or in any way? ...[/b]

Does anyone think my questions here to harsh, to legalistic? ... Or like with myself do such ponderings bring on spiritaul joy to the fact that as much as a saint decreases in "self" the more Christ increases in a saint, in realization that the more we decrease in self-commendation the more our spiritual eyes and ears are opened to His parameters and our following of them ... For me this thread has been beneficial in Holy Spirit's fine tuning an even more acute questioning of my motives" and "priority" in what i do ... Some might think it tedious to live a Christian life constantly being concerned about what He thinks, but isn't that the truest part of our own offering to Him once covered in His saving blood, presenting ourselves a living sacrifice which is our reasonable service? ...

You know saints some of you may think we "repentance criers" are as looney as looney can be ... You may be proven right, and if we're wrong i desperately pray God to free us ALL from this hook because to "buck the grain" of self commending saints and Church, apart from God's calling to do so, means we have masochistic tendencies, and that's not healthy period ... In short it means we're sick ... But until such time as God proves otherwise, in my spirit the thinking behind this thread (and others like it) sends me into a spiritual fit like the robot on Lost In Space: WARNING WILL ROBINSON! - DANGER! - DANGER! ...

If i'm being unscripturally and unnecessarily self deprecating here will someone please give me the Bible passages otherwise, but in the interim i think it extremely dangerous for any saint to be commending ourselves in any kind of way since i see all such commendations as no where in our realm, but belonging soley to Christ ... And i think to do so puts us in danger of not being able to hear His continuous knocking on the door of our hearts ... There was a time when i thought it was our complicity with the world, the things of the world, and the lure of mammon that primarily keeps us from hearing Him, but now i detect something even more sinister ... It was there all the time, Christ said it ... In order for any of us to tell Him we're in need of nothing is birthed out of vile self- righteousness, self-commendation ...

[b]Paul's words below are now screaming at me, or am i taking them out of contex? ...

[12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
[17] But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
[18] For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.[/b]

In light of all us saints belonging to Christ by His shed blood i've often thought of Rev.3:19-20 just how weird it is that He who owns us, the house we're in ignoring His knock to what He wants from us, and the door He's knocking on - is outside knocking in the first place! ... It's often made me wonder, since He said "as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" if He just one day gets tired and decides to just walk away from all that's His in the first, or does He surprise us and do what many of us can never fathom our Christ as Genie doing, and that's kicking our doors down - after all it is His door, His house, and the occupants, us - His ...

Sound kinda far fetched? ... Perhaps about as far fetched as when the lowly, meek and mild Jesus upset the folk in His Fathers house for making it a house of merchandise ...

May His will be done on our behalf ... Lord help us all ... Amen ...

 2007/1/18 10:23Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Jaysaved

This however does not negate my subject. My subject is that all too often it is easy to blame every problem in America on the church. The church is strong and loved by God. Yes, Christians may slide into sin but God will bring discipline, not destruction to the church.

who said anything about the destruction of the Church? :-? if i remember right, the thing which people were expressing was a judgment on the nation and church to bring us to repentance, not judgment unto destruction.

it seems to me that the world is wicked and will get it's judgment. however a part of the wickedness of the world has to do with us the Church not fully living up to what Christ demands and so the heathen scoff and say "well they do what we do so why should i repent?" the heathen see us in our backslidden state and take occasion to mock God on our account. i'm not talking about the false converts or those who think they are saved but are not but true believers who have backslidden.

Peter did write that the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of the Lord...what are we to make of that in light of grace? could it be that grace doesn't exempt us from judgment when we transgress God but we are afforded time enough to repent? if this is so, what happens when time runs out while we have yet to repent?

Farai Bamu

 2007/1/23 0:23Profile

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