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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Revelation

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allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

The points you are making and scripture references are all valid but why try to work out what every single word means when we can just take it literally, Obviously some of the images are symbolic and I bet every one is mentioned elsewhere with an interpretation, a lot of Revelation is interpereted in itself, but to say that the difficult passages are symbolic because they seem far-fetched is putting our own interpretation on God's word.

Do you think He will be mad at us if we take Him literally? If He has shown us the meaning elsewhere and we are neglegent in our studies then I can see Him being disapointed, but to twist what He says so it fits what we think is going to happen in the future, thats walking on thin ice.

Please re-read my first post, I am not trying to debate individual verses, especially as I am no scholar, but if we start off accepting the word as literal and only applying symbolism and interpretation to those things we can clearly see are revealed in scripture (that is they are interpreted elsewhere) then we are on safer ground than if we think everything is a symbol and have to try and work out how each word or phrase relates to the real world.

I will repeat some of my first post; let's not worry about weather or not there will be fire breathing witnesses, we will find out soon enough, let's just do what He told us to do and when the end time events unfold we will see that He has already revealed them to us so we have confidence in Him and are pre warned as to the urgency of the times we live in.

In a nutshell; when the witnesses appear in whatever form, I will not be shouting 'See I told you' or 'Sorry I thought that...' I will be preaching 'the kingdom of God is at hand, Repent therefore...', unless of cours I've been raptured, but that's another thread :-P


_________________
Ste

 2007/1/10 18:35Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

allhavsinned wrote:
Are the two witnesses Moses and Elijah? or the church of England and the methodists? ;-) Who cares!



Well, that's like saying 'Who cares about "baptism of the Spirit"' or "Who cares about immursion or sprinkling" or even "Who cares about giving money to God"

Umm brother. These things are in the Book that WE (Christians) stand on. Everything in it, from cover to cover IS IMPORTANT. I don't care who you are, where your from, what 'Christian' background you have. From Gen. to Revelation the ENTIRE bible is IMPORTANT.

GOD CARES.

[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%208:3,%20Matthew%204:3-4,%20John%206:47-58;&version=49;]Every Word is Important[/url]

Now, just like ANY topic we shouldn't get 'carried away' in something. (Which I think you were impling) Like being so 'strong' in bible prophesy yet neglect love, justice and righteousness. There is a balance but let's not limit God's revelation and understanding that He gives to His people.

If God wrote it and had it in this Book. It's important case closed.

I don't fully understand it but I know God knows it and if I diligently seek His face and truth. He will show me His meaning.

Keep seeking Him 8-)

 2007/1/10 20:35Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Not to be mean but this was your (allhavesinned) post in another thread.

Quote:
When we read Scripture it's too easy to say 'I understand that' and skip over it, really we think we understand it, like my daughter thought she understood how to work a teabag, but actually we need to realise that too many times we miss whole area's of scripture that appear to be simple on the outside but inside they hold the most profound nuggets for our learning.



Yet. I think you've done that 'allhavesinned'. We are judged by our words. And to my eyes seems like you should do some checking on weither you believe that quote in this reply.

Again, not trying to be mean. I just love God's word because I get to learn more about Him and saying that 'some of Him' isn't worth looking into is, to me, wrong.

Love and grace.

 2007/1/10 20:42Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Lovegrace, I apreciate what you are saying and I feel I am digging myself into a pit in this thread, I have never been much good at explaining myself. I do realise that my other thread has lessons that have just come to light to me and I need to take them onboard as you have said, but if we look at the initial post from Jaysaved, he asked if Revelation was lieral or symbolic or both (if I understand his post correctly), my response was that we should take everything literally unless there is good scriptural reason not to. My comment about who the witnesses are and I said 'who cares' i did put a smiley there to show my tongue in cheek tone, I don't mean the word of God is not important but that for now the issue of the witnesses is not important because we have other areas to deal with like the great comission, I wanted to warn people away from putting too much study into things that have been hidden until God's timing, that's what cults do to woo people into their churches, promising to explain the difficult passages.

I too love God's word but the division that comes about because people disagree on some small point, when we would be better spending our time not on trying to predict the future (as we do when trying to say who the witnesses are), but to study what we do understand in the bible and aply it to our lives, then God will reveal more of His word to us.

I am going to bow out of this thread now, I am not saying I am right, I am just putting forward observations that come from experience, I love to read other peoples posts because they are often further along the narrow way than I am, so I will stop taking up space and wait for JaySaved's question to be answered by them.


_________________
Ste

 2007/1/10 21:37Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
my response was that we should take everything literally unless there is good scriptural reason not to.



This is what I would like to address and I hope others would join this conversation.

This is a common way of interpreting Revelation but it is very subjective. One person might think there is a good scriptural reason to say that the two witnesses are symbolic and not actually two physical people. Another might not think there is not a good scriptural reason to see symbolism in the two witnesses and they affirm that the two witnesses must be two physical people. Who is right when this type of interpretation is used?

Did God actually intend for us to read the prophecy in Revelation by constantly switching back and forth between literal and symbolic?

 2007/1/11 15:22Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:
Lovegrace, I apreciate what you are saying and I feel I am digging myself into a pit in this thread, I have never been much good at explaining myself.



I had quite a laugh about that statement. Cause I've been battling with that in real life for a few years now. Word that are common to me are 'you dont understand, ugh nevermind, forget it' haha. Brother. Thanks for clarifying everything. I think I too will step out of this conversation as well though. Because I have no other knowledge on this topic.

 2007/1/11 16:42Profile









 Re:

The book of Revelation has been a mystery to anyone who reads it. Yet, the book even though it was written down by John, was over 500 years old. It was shown to Daniel but it was SEALED up, even though he kept asking question regarding it.

The book of Revelation starts at Daniel 10:5. His intro is like that of John's. It picks up in Chapter 11, and continues on to chapter 12, until the Angel said to Daniel to seal up the book TILL THE TIME OF THE END.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

In John's day that book was opened at the time of the end, and the seal was broken by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

What Daniel sealed, Jesus revealed. "At the time of the end", which was to "Shortly come to pass", "At hand" "At the doors", "It is nigh", "Behold I come Quickly", "soon".

Quote:
Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.



Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

Quote:
Shortly, an Adverb, example: in the near future; "the doctor will soon be here"; "the book will appear shortly"; "she will arrive presently"; "we should have news before long" [syn: soon]

 2007/4/8 12:27









 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:
What Daniel sealed, Jesus revealed. "At the time of the end", which was to "Shortly come to pass", "At hand" "At the doors", "It is nigh", "Behold I come Quickly", "soon".

...Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

Quote:
Shortly, an Adverb, example: in the near future; "the doctor will soon be here"; "the book will appear shortly"; "she will arrive presently"; "we should have news before long" [syn: soon]


Hi Compliments

I like your way of linking Revelation with Daniel.

However, "soon" need not mean "soon" in our human terms. Remember too what was said about timelines and Hebraic as opposed to Western, Greek, thought.

There's also the possibility of more than one fulfillments of the same prophecy. A classic example, would be in Isaiah "a virgin shall conceive and bear a son". "virgin" simply means a young woman of marriagable age, perhaps just married or about to be married. The first fulfilment would have been within a year or so of the prophecy. The "sign" Isaiah gave was that Judah's enemies would be no more by the time a child conceived then was old enough to say "Daddy!"

Nobody, perhaps not even Isaiah, would have understood at the time that there was a far greater fulfillment to come!

Similarly, how do we know for sure if the parts of Revelation that seem to be already fulfilled, or in process of fulfillment, have been "fully fulfilled"?

I think that, re studying the "Last Days" we are often like children, saying "Are we there yet?"
:-P

That's why I'm very wary of being dogmatic in interpreting Apocalyptic books.

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/4/9 7:33









 Re:

Quote:

lovegrace wrote:
Out of my limited knowledge on this topic, I would like to still share what I feel that God has shown me about this book.

1. It's not a timeline.

Dispite many pre-tribulationists and mid-tribulationists (and even some post-tribers) may think. It's NOT a timeline. How?

Well. The bible was never written with Chapters and Verses, they were put in LATER. Even though it's handy, it's wasn't apart of the ORGINAL copies.

Second, and more of a solid defense for my statement. The writers and us (American/Europeans) have different thought processes or 'different WAYS' of thinking. Keep in mind NEITHER are bad, just DIFFERENT. Just like their are different ways of learning.

John and the middle eastern writers (which is 'kinda' what they are) are from the Orent(i think that's how you spell it), basically Asian. And us (American and European) are from the Greco-Roman decents.

The Orent are thinkers of seasons and events. Where Greco-Romans think more in a linar way; numbers, titles, etc.

Greco-Romans think '1 comes before 2 and 2 before 3 and so-on.' Where the Orent think in seasons or events, like walking up the stairs or going to the beach.

Example, Greco-Romans think January comes before December and such. Well, true but not if your IN December. Orent thinkers think Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter. They focus more on EVENTS and not on numbers or titles.

Another example. To the Orent you could be in the 'winter' for years, if there is a plague or drought or something that hits them for a few years but in reality you went through January and December many times but again to the Orenty they still think their in WINTER till the next sight of SPRING.

2. It interupts a majority of itself.

Daniel and Revelation (as far as I've seen) tell you what each 'beast' or thing means.

If John, Daniel, or believer in the Word didn't understand something, someone (Jesus, Angel, or God the Father) revealed the meaning IN SCRIPTURE. For example the parable of the Sower. Honestly. I don't see how you get the interuptation from what He said RIGHT after He said it. Maybe your just more spiritual then myself. I don't know.

3. It's not American.

Enough said.

4. It's the future.

Therefore, it's something that we should all be dilgent on learning about. Let's not be ignorant on a topic that Christ Himself has given for us.

Rev. 1:3 (NASB)
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

A few things that I've seen, by His everlasting grace, is the parellels in the Book of Revelation.

1. 7 trumpets and 7 bowls seem to line up almost completly. (the 1st and 5th don't line up completly. Like the 1st don't at all. But the 5th still mention torment from a enemy).

Check
[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%208:7-9:21,%2011:15-19;&version=49;]7 trumpets[/url] and [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%2016:2-21;&version=49;]7 bowls[/url]

2. The 2 witnesses, Women-Baby-Dragon, and Beast from the Sea inter-lock VERY CLOSLY with Daniel (and each other).

Check [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%2011:7,%2012:17,%2013:7,%20Dan.%207:21;&version=49;]inter locking[/url]

I have another 'revelation' but I can't reveal it till I have a more credable case.


Now. Just a few side notes:

When studying this book or ANY book:

1. Keep an open mind and heart to the Holy Spirit.

Just cause you think your theology is 'right'. It might be completly wrong according to His Truth.

2. Be willing for Him to change YOUR doctrine.

This goes back into the 1st one.

3. Don't hold history or 'popular' teaching ABOVE the Word of God.

Many people get wrapped up in popular teaching. For example "You need faith to be healed". Hmm, that's not what [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2013:21;&version=49;]2 Kings 13:21[/url] implies.

4. Be testing of any 'new'(to you) doctrine.

Test ALL things and HOLD fast to what is GOOD.

5. Don't be afraid of history, it might reveal 'just how old is this doctrine'.

Just like the rapture. I think America is older than the doctrine. (Pretty young doctrine).


Have fun with this great book. I know I am!! :-P


You have a great way of putting things, LoveGrace.

And I think I agree 99% as well!
Quote:
I have another 'revelation' but I can't reveal it till I have a more credable case.


Any chance of a sneak preview vi a PM? ;-)

- In Him who is the Fulfillment of ALL the Law and the Prophets

Jeannette

 2007/4/9 7:37









 Re: Literal or symbolic?

Maybe Revelation is composed mainly of SYMBOLIC representations of LITERAL things and events?

Makes sense to me, especially as much of what is described is probably spiritual realities and spiritual beings that can't easily be described in words, let alone literally, however hard you try (see Ezekiel 1 for example, he's clearly struggling to describe what he saw.)


Jeannette 8-)

PS I think that the two witnesses are probably the written Word of God

There were two tablets of the Law

The Law and the Prophets

Legally two witnesses to truth were enough

Two poillars outside Solomon's temple

Jeremiah, "Is not my word like a fire...says the Lord"

etc

 2007/4/9 7:46





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