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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake
you write Question: Did God the Father die on the cross, too? You seem to be saying this. If so, who raised Christ from the Dead?

No, the Father did not die on the cross; neither did the Spirit. But the Father paid the price in the gift of His Son, the God-man. I don't know if you are a family man, but for a Father to give a son is the greatest price a father could pay. A far greater price than if He had come and died Himself. Three Persons of the Godhead combined in perfect agreement to execute the purpose of One God at Calvary.

He can only be 'an example to follow' for those who have His Spirit. No man or woman could emulate Christ without the Spirit of Christ.

I am glad to see the way you have expressed things in your first paragraph, but to appreciate what Christ has done you will need to come to terms with God's anger being turned away by the death of His Son. [Isaiah 12] He bore our sin and it separated Him from His Father. The Passion of the Christ was that His Father turned the sword on Him. [Zech 13:7] This is Jehovah visiting His wrath upon His Son. Charles Spurgeon once said; it was as though the Father unsheathed the sword of His righteous anger against sin, and then sheathed it once and forever in the body of His Son.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/26 17:22Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Just wanted to thank Ron (philologos) here for the tremendous patience and willingness to help spell out these things for us all, even if they are intended specifically, we get to eavesdrop and learn alongside. This is not just here but throughout this forum.

Thanks also to Jake, you get a lot of these things started :-D

Now that I have you sufficently buttered up...

With all that you contribute here Ron, I almost digress to ask this, maybe you could put it in the back of your mind for later;

The 3 hours of darkness.

Sorry for the interuption, folks.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program...




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Mike Balog

 2004/2/26 20:59Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Mike wrote With all that you contribute here Ron, I almost digress to ask this, maybe you could put it in the back of your mind for later;

The 3 hours of darkness.

Hi Mike
Is this a question? or a request for comments?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/27 6:05Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

I was thinking along the lines of exegesis or maybe we could say the x of Jesus?


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Mike Balog

 2004/2/27 8:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:The Darkness

Hi Mike
My first thought was 'this would take a lot of time', but as I woke this morning the thought came "no, it wouldn't you've already done it".

This 3 hours darkness are at the very centre of my understanding of redemption and I have returned to the theme many times. Some on those occasions are in the Download section.

There is Psalm 22 which is self standing and relatively short, but for more depth there are two series where I have returned to this this theme. The Three Prayers which is probably the most focused on the real 'Passion of the Christ' and The Baptism which returns to Gethsemene and the Cross to explain why Christ called the Cross 'my baptism'.

Those three hours, when the sun was darkened, are the most momentous that our world ever experienced. From midday to 3pm there was darkness over the whole land; the sun was darkened (although astronomically it could not have been an eclipse as it took place at Passover when an eclipse would have been impossible) as the three hours of darkness came to and end the temple veil was split, Christ began what we now know as Psalm 22. "My God, my God why has thou forsaken me". Understanding this statement will reveal the real "Passion of the Christ". Then, just moments later, He lifted up his voice and cried "It is done". This was no last gasp of defeat but a triumph cry that can still be heard in the Spirit. He then breathed out his spirit. The scriptural records of these events do not say he died. Dying is something that 'happens' to a person; He dismissed His spirit.. the work was done. All these events took place at the end of the 3 hours. What happened during the 3 hours? He bore our sins in His body on the tree, He became sin for us, He carried the sins of the world, triumphed gloriously, the horse and the rider he cast into the sea...

Oh, I love this theme, and could go on for ever... one day I will. :-P I have a song in my heart that I am going to sing forever.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

and for ever and ever and ever and ever, and I shall never tire of singing His praises, for ever and ever and ever...


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/28 3:48Profile
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Joined: 2003/12/30
Posts: 297
Connecticut, USA

 Re: The Darkness

Quote:
“I shall never tire of singing His praises, for ever and ever and ever...”


Jesus, the very thought of Thee
With sweetness fills the breast;
But sweeter far Thy face to see,
And in Thy presence rest. ….

But what to those who find? Ah, this
Nor tongue nor pen can show;
The love of Jesus, what it is,
None but His loved ones know.


Yes indeed. It needs forever and forever and…


Thanks, brother, for the post


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Roger P.

 2004/2/28 7:21Profile
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Posts: 297
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 Re: "A terrible soul reality"

“My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?”



“How infinitely terrible that He, who had from eternity been in the bosom of the Father, should lose that - not as an act in a play, not as something staged, but as a reality, a terrible soul reality. “
T.Austin-Sparks – “The Significance of Christ.” Ch.1


Roger


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Roger P.

 2004/2/28 7:25Profile
eagleswings
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Posts: 297
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 Re: In Christ

Concerning the available download to which he linked, Ron wrote:

“'The Baptism' … returns to Gethsemene and the Cross to explain why Christ called the Cross 'my baptism'.”


“When God forsook His Son, that was the final forsaking of man IN CHRIST, - no more forsaking, no more tasting of death for those who are IN CHRIST. Spiritual death is the complete consciousness of what it means to be finally abandoned by God. He tasted that for every man; there is no more of that for those who are in Christ; that death has been swallowed up in Him.”
T.Austin-Sparks, :Resurrection: the Hallmark of Sonship” - From “This Ministry” messages given at Honour Oak, V.3



Roger



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Roger P.

 2004/2/28 7:36Profile
crsschk
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Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:The Darkness

Precisely!

A bit of clarification on my comment:

Quote:
I was thinking along the lines of exegesis or maybe we could say the x of Jesus?


An older thread in this regards:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=835&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Chi-Rho [/url]

As well with this in mind,

[i][u]Christ[/u]
Anointed, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word rendered “Messiah” (q.v.), the official title of our Lord, occurring five hundred and fourteen times in the New Testament. It denotes that he was [b]anointed or consecrated[/b] to his great redemptive work as Prophet, Priest, and King of his people.[/i]
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Thanks Ron,
I know we have touched on this at various times and places throughout this forum and it is an inexhaustable theme.
The importance of it is as you stated [i]"This 3 hours darkness are at the very centre of my understanding of redemption and I have returned to the theme many times."[/i]

My understanding (albeit limited) is the same, if we could but 'capture' this into our very being.

Quote:
All these events took place at the end of the 3 hours. What happened during the 3 hours? He bore our sins in His body on the tree, He became sin for us, He carried the sins of the world, triumphed gloriously, the horse and the rider he cast into the sea...



From this I want to extract [i]"What happened during the 3 hours?"[/i]
The depths of this statement.
Surely you touched on them, I still need to pause here and....[i]feel[/i] this.
“My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?”

Thanks Roger for:

[i]“How infinitely terrible that He, who had from eternity been in the bosom of the Father, should lose that - not as an act in a play, not as something staged, but as a reality, a terrible soul reality. “
T.Austin-Sparks – “The Significance of Christ.” Ch.1[/i]

Selah
__________________________

Lot going on right now and I want to listen to the related messages you have so graciously supplied and [i]We will hear thee again of this matter.(Act 17:32)[/i]
Quote:
Oh, I love this theme, and could go on for ever... one day I will. I have a song in my heart that I am going to sing forever.


Amen.


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Mike Balog

 2004/2/28 12:21Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: the darkness

Quote:
This 3 hours darkness are at the very centre of my understanding of redemption and I have returned to the theme many times. Some on those occasions are in the Download section.



I'm just trying to process this 3-hours of darkness in relation to redemption so please bear with me and my ponderings.

Certainly there is a significant aspect of spiritual death at the Cross, but my limited undertstanding on redemption has the shed blood very much at the center:

[i]Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased [b]with his own blood[/b].[/i](Acts 20:28)

[i]Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [b]But with the precious blood[/b] of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:[/i](1 Peter 1:18-19)

[i]And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God [b]by thy blood[/b] out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;[/i](Revelation 5:9)

The fruit of His suffering was redemption to God. The price paid for our redemption was the blood of the Lamb. We know that Christ was no mere martyr. As Matthew Henry said;

The blood was his as Man; yet so close is the union between the Divine and human nature, that it is there called the blood of God, for it was the blood of Him who is God. This put such dignity and worth into it, as to ransom believers from all evil, and purchase all good.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/2/28 13:23Profile





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