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 Love your enemies or punish them in Hell

Jesus said:

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful."
Luke 6:27-36.

But, apparently, God the Father will condemn those who reject and hate Him to eternal torment in hell. He asks us to love our enemies and then, treats His own enemies with punishment.

Says one thing, does another. Go figure.

Jake

 2004/2/24 10:36
Everlast
Member



Joined: 2003/10/16
Posts: 63
Missouri

 Re: Love your enemies or punish them in Hell

This would beg a question along this line...Why does the OT show a God of wrath and the NT a God of mercy? The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the OT as He is in the NT. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their backs on Him. The psalms often speak of God's mercy poured out on sinners. He is also just as wrath filled in the NT as He is in the Old. He killed a husband and wife in the Book of Acts, simply because they told one lie. Jesus warned that He was to be feared because He has the power to cast the body and soul into hell. The apostle Paul said that he persuaded men to come to the Savior because he knew the "terror of the Lord." Read the dreadful judgements of Revelation. That will put the "fear of God" in you, which incidentally is "the beginning of wisdom." Perhaps the most fearful display of His wrath is seen in the cross of Jesus Christ. His fury so came upon the Messiah that it seems God enshrouded the face of Jesus in darkness so that creation couldn't gaze upon His unspeakable agony. Whether we like it or not, our God is a consuming fire of holiness (Hebrews 12:29). He isn't going to change, so we had better...before the Day of Judgement. If we repent, God, in His mercy, will forgive us and grant us eternal life in heaven with Him.


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Shelly

 2004/2/25 1:36Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37187
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
But, apparently, God the Father will condemn those who reject and hate Him to eternal torment in hell. He asks us to love our enemies and then, treats His own enemies with punishment.

Says one thing, does another. Go figure.


Jake its plain to see by your comments that you don't [b]fear[/b] God, how can you talk this way of Him (I shudder as I write this). If you do call yourself a quaker then I would encourage you to go and read George Fox, his doctrinal books (which I have and enjoy reading emmensly). In them you will see plainly the truths of God. I think that will get you farther in your spiritual walk then bantering over non-existant issues such as the one you raised. Please use wisdom and discretion in your postings, the reason the forums are here are for Christians to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. We are His body.. that is if the Spirit of Christ lives in you?


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/2/25 1:46Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

But, apparently, God the Father will condemn those who reject and hate Him to eternal torment in hell. He asks us to love our enemies and then, treats His own enemies with punishment.

Says one thing, does another. Go figure.

Jake
Here we go again. Have you ever tried to measure just how much of the Bible you have absolute confidence in? I know you are not impressed by Paul, that about 33% of the New Testament. I know you don't like the Revelation. You reject the necessity of the virgin birth, Christ's bodily resurrection and physical return. There are clearly whole swathes of the Old Testament that you have no confidence in. As far as I can understand your position, you reject the teaching that Satan is a spirit-being person, with a never ending destiny.

In the end you are endorsing the ethic of Jesus the Teacher. The teaching of Jesus is wonderful and utterly impossible to someone who rejects the person of Jesus as described by the the gospel recorders. Of the teaching of Jesus you reject his own personal attitude to the scriptures which we the background to everything He said and did.

You position is like someone who having read War and Peace rejects whole sections of it, concentrates on a heavily edited version of some of the conversations. Some parts you interpret in an idiosyncritic manner unknown to any other reader, but confirmed by your inner witness.You embrace notions rejected by the text eg reincarnation. Nevetheless you are a firm believer in War and Peace..

I repeat Jake, and without anger but with genuine concern for your soul, you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. The Bible will only reveal its secrets to those who trust it. The god you worship is a god of your own creation, such worship is idolatry. The only person you are affecting by your bizarre interpretations is yourself; every repitition only confirms you in your darkness. For you it becomes more coherent in the telling but to others.

What you have Jake is Buddhism with a Christian vocabulary. Your concepts of reality are Buddhist, not Christian. Satan is not an illusion to himself or to anyone else. Reincarnation is is Buddhist not Christian. Transcendental meditation is not Christian it is Buddhist.

You call yourself Christian but will not acknowledge the virgin birth, his physical resurrection. You will not acknowledge that Jesus is uniquely the Son of God, fully God made fully human. All this is perfectly compatible with Buddhism. A man who does not believe what you don't believe, and does believe what you do believe,can never be called Christian.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/25 4:36Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

I know some things are hard to understand. I don't understand with my human mind- all that IS.

But I have come to this conclusion: God is God- we are not. He has the authority and power and rule to do whatever He wants.I trust that He is just. He gives boundries for our benefit and we are to stay within those boundries. If we choose to live outside those boundries (acting as God ourselves) then we must suffer the consequences. We know the boundries- we choose blessing or judgement by our actions.

Same with any good parent. With my children, I give boundries AND I let them know the consequencs of stepping outside those boundries. They, then CHOOSE to either obey or get disciplined.- even though I LOVE them to death- I will discipline (give them consequences)because it is for their own good- for their own safety, for their own wisdom in the future.

The difference between us and God is that HE iS GOD. We are not.

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/2/25 9:22Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

In response to the original question,
I need to ask, what is the agenda here?
Is this to 'push some buttons'?
An honest inquiry?
Something is suspect in the attempt to marry the line of thought with the texts together.

What is the response to the issues raised and the questions asked from others here?

Jake, brother, what is going on?
I think it can be stated that we as a whole are concerned about you as a [i]person[/i].
More importantly the state of your soul and I mean that in all sincerity.
May God have mercy on me if I am misunderstanding you or your intentions.
The love of God within me compels me to ask along with the others, why? Why this bent towards leaning on your own knowledge? Do you really think that we all have some kind of mold that we are attempting to press you into?

I think at the heart of it we are all trying to understand and grasp the deep mystery's of God.
Some things we will be debating till the cows come home or the Lord returns.
But the core essentials of the Christian faith keep coming up for challenge and want to be re-written. Are we not mere creatures?

This scripture instantly came to mind upon re-reading all this again:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

You may percieve that anyway you choose, but what I gather out of it is the principle as it applies here and the byproduct of our troubles.

Let us be humbled before our God.
Let us be of some help if we can Jake, not by any of our own wisdom, but as we also submit ourselves to the wisdom of God.
Praying for us all.
May the Lord be merciful.


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Mike Balog

 2004/2/25 11:14Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

I make my cat eat off the basement floor. I eat at the table. When my cat jumps on the table she gets backhanded off the table. She isn't allowed to go outside but I do it several times a day. When she tries to go out she gets kicked in the face. It is for her own good. There are rules that apply to her because I'm in charge and taking care of her and what I say goes. She is not on my level and if she wants to fight it out to the ultimate showdown I'll have her put down (I live in town or else I'd do it myself).

Anything about this seem analogous to the discussion? Our place is under God's. We are thrilled to get canned tuna and not the lethal injection we deserve.

 2004/2/25 13:01Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Jake I must echo the previous questions from Mike and philologos posted.What are your motives for this thread? scripture exhorts us to PROVOKE one another to good works.Are you sure of your contributions dear friend?
Looking ahead & up
Delboy :-?


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derek Eyre

 2004/2/25 18:22Profile
Danielcourtney
Member



Joined: 2004/1/26
Posts: 15
Statesville, Nc

 Re: jake

Jake, man I say again get saved dude. Stop raising these silly questions to men and get saved.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1Cor2:14

danielcourtney


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Daniel Parks

 2004/2/25 22:06Profile









 Re:

First of all, I appreciate the genuine concern of posters on this thread. My original post on this thread about loving our enemies or punishing them in hell, was, as some of you have guessed, rhetorical. I have a problem with the concept of Eternal, never ending punishment because it seems to go against the teaching of love conveyed by Jesus. For me the saving grace of Jesus is his profound teachings and demonstation of love. He teaches us how to live and offers us His Holy Spirit as a counselor.

Yes, Philologos, Jesus was God in the flesh, but how this is so is a mystery to me and should be a mystery to all of us. (Claims of Virgin birth was a common means of deifying people throughout the ages.) Did Jesus have free will? or was He a puppet on God's strings? I believe He had free will as a human being and thus, He could not have been identical in nature with God the Father.

What I find strange and offensive is that while I claim Jesus in numerous posts on this site, people like Danielcourtney continue to urge me to "just get saved." I have a different take on the Scriptures and Christianity but my faith, like yours, is in Jesus, the only son of God.

We all have "that of God" within us. Because of this I think we are each supposed to make our own way in faith. Rigid, lock step, fundamentalism drives more people away from the faith than it draws in or retains. It also encourages conformism, which, if you understand anything about Jesus, is cowardly.

For me the Bible explains the Christian and Jewish faiths and their roots. But as a historical document, it has many flaws and is in error in many places. Yet, this does not detract from its spiritual importance by one micron.

Yes I believe we will be judged on some basis of faith and works (because they are inseparable, and because Jesus tells us to judge by the fruits.) But I believe the descriptions of Hell have been made very vivid for the reason of scaring people. God is righteous, but also merciful, and so my personal conception of hell is endless nonbeing. I have a hard time accepting a loving God as one that would also condemn people to eternal hell.

"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16

Jake

 2004/2/26 9:45





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