| Re: A Line Drawn In The Sand: 2007 ...|
Happy New Year sis D ... :-D
As usual you operate by looser parameters than myself ... Like Hebrew National: I answer to a Higher authority ... :-P
Again this is my view, in my experience of the heaviness of daring to output "thus saith the Lord" ...
[b]"If events come forth as fore-told then God Himself proves us ... If they don't then God, thru scripture, plainly reproves us, regardless of whether we we're sincere, mis-led, or deluded, as FALSE PROPHETS ... Period! ...
And to this we can add your, "Or maybe just immature, impulsive, and hasty", but it still does not stop the fact of being: FALSE!, as made inexcapably plain in the scripture below ...
 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
[b]MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY;"[/b]
Deut. 18:22. If there was any cause to suspect the sincerity of a prophet, let them observe that if he gave them any sign, or foretold something to come, and the event was not according to his prediction, they might be sure he was not sent of God ...They are directed not to be afraid of a false prophet; that is, not to be afraid of the judgments such a one might denounce to amuse people and strike terror upon them; nor to be afraid of executing the law upon him when, upon a strict and impartial scrutiny, it appeared that he was a false prophet. This command not to fear a false prophet implies that a true prophet, who proved his commission by clear and undeniable proofs, was to be feared, and it was at their peril if they offered him any violence or put any slight upon him.
[b][color=FF0000]i'll be making no further comment on this subject,[/color][/b] but just wanted to share the brevity of responsibility i feel, and the fear i have in the Lord about this because i know God ain't real big on "false prophets" ... i do what i do, and i've done what i've done out of faith, but make no excuses if He proves me false, and will have to bear whatever reprimand if He sees fit ...
[i][b]As to the rest of what you posted, the bottom line of my post to brother Ironman is simple: "We're way past talk" ... God will now either stand us up in a way in which we've never been stood up before, or He'll sit us down in a way in which we've never been sat down before" ... And it won't be much longer before it's made plain to us ALL! [/b][/i]
| 2007/1/8 16:42||Profile|
Rahman, you may be finished on all this, but can you just hang in for a few more thoughts...
You said, regarding my earlier response to you:
As usual you operate by looser parameters than myself ... Like Hebrew National: I answer to a Higher authority .
In the OT an adulterer was to be stoned. Period! Christ himself was viewed as operating by looser parameters on this issue. After all, He gave second chances. And he still does: redemption, forgiveness, mercy, salvation - wherever there is repentance. Does that not apply today to any kind of repentant sinner even those who make wrong predictions?
i've done what i've done out of faith, but make no excuses if He proves me false, and will have to bear whatever reprimand if He sees fit ..
Whatever is not of faith is sin, so would that not mean that the converse is true: whatever is done in faith is NOT sin. That would imply that if you are proved wrong, then you did NOT make your claim out of faith, but from something else. That would be the bigger issue than the rightness or wrongness of the prophesy: your faith, which is more precious than gold.
The onset of Revival - beginning "here", which i believe to be my home church since it was there that i recieved the "word" (me)
Just curious: How did God tell you that revival would begin in your home church? Was it a dream, a voice, a vision, a scripture? How has he been reconfirming this word? From your wording, it seems like it was a logical deduction. (Im being a thorn, again)
Am I right (or wrong)? It seems like you are banking your entire standing with God on this prophesy about revival beginning at your home church. Heres my real concern: You may have a very long time to wait before you find out if you are living in faith or in sin. It would be tragic to have to wait years before knowing for sure. In fact, I have heard various people say that God will bring revival in the NEXT generation, not ours. I am inclined to lean that way.
Quote: Dont count on it. Predictions that come true dont necessarily do as much as we hope. It sure didnt work in Jesus day. Look how many prophesies he fulfilled and major ones at that!
But if He proves us true, then i think of how many whose faith will be enhanced
Also, could it not happen that when people encounter Jesus, all else, including predictions will grow dim in their eyes?
It is not mainly about miracles, signs, wonders, and prophesies. (see 1 Cor. 13) There are far more important elements of our Christian life. Christ is central, not our prophesies or any gifts.
In a sense many of the revival prophesies are incidental compared to the bigger picture of Gods mighty move. Its not so much about place and form. The New Covenant is all about Gods kingdom IN YOU, growing in the hearts of people. That is far more important than locations or buildings
. We cant separate revival from basic biblical principles regarding the way God works in lives.
There is also the possibility that the predicted revival may begin in hundreds of churches simultaneously. You wouldnt be wrong, really, but that wouldnt make much of your prophesy.
You see where Im going
If you end up being wrong about revival at your church, you cant hurt many people certainly it makes no difference to me here in Canada. But in the mean time, what about your own relationship with Christ. Is it being held in hostage by this prophetic thing?
Quote: Exactly! This is the more restful path to take, isnt it? We surrender the gifts to God and just be a normal Christian. God will take care of the calling. After all if it began with him, it will continue with him and grow with him.
quietly submit ourselves to a more "normal" Christianity and less "hyper" faith
God bless you. I know his hand is at work in your life!
| 2007/1/8 19:25||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Brothers|
IRONMAN and Rahman,
You are both beloved without equivocation and that is and is not a necessary nicety before the setup for what follows. It is, in that it is true, it is also a setup, in that there is still some things that are begging answers.
In all honesty, much of this sounds like you are seeking vindication for [i]yourselves[/i]. That you are almost as concerned for this as for what you believe to be your particular roles as prophets and what you believe is up around the horizon.
That is just a very flat statement, I mean no other thing by it. The thing that I find a constant wonder is the never ending explaining and defending that is being done. Where is the self-abasing, couldn't care less attitude of the past prophets, not that they couldn't care less about the burden and the word and the fear and trembling, all those things, but I do mean for their selves? Is this about them or you or God? Where is the accounting of the prophets defending and constantly explaining, 'proving' themselves?
It brings doubt to what is being spoken by so much ... underpinning, that it needs all this to lend support and credence and ... proof. That may be far from your particular thinking, but it is an effect being left on the table, at least to my perception. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you believe these things are from the Lord, nor that this is your modus operandi, your self vindication, still it is in part it seems.
I would also take a great deal of umbrage, if this is being applied loosely to some here, I despise insinuations and presumption, so do correct me if I am wrong but;
To be proven false will for most who know us mark us as an "i told you so" in reference to our claims, and so enable them renewed comfort in Christianity as usual ...
And that not the later, am unsure what level of comfort you might mean, but the former, do you not know us far better than that?
It seems quite the leap to be almost ... predicting the outcome and reaction expected. Perhaps it was general comment meant in no particular direction.
Let me back up just a hair;
If events come forth as fore-told then God Himself proves us ...
Would it not in fact prove [i]Himself?[/i] And what indeed if you brothers are correct, what then? Does the shoe go on the other foot, [i]"I told you so?"[/i]
Look, you guy's both make this even more difficult and convoluted because you are true Brethren, not 'false' 'prophets'. Time indeed will tell and it may only be the latter part that is errant ... perhaps [i]wrong[/i] prophets or just not prophets at all.
There is still a very large question not being answered spiritually, that many of us do not have a similar witness of spirit, you do recognize your Brethren here right? That this is not just a casual bunch ... Oh I don't need to say it.
There is still a chance you could both be dead on. But I just don't honestly know, nor sense it. And that is of no real matter anyway, whatever I might think. I do however sense that all that is written is indeed in motion and on it's way, when?, I have no other thing to recall than the Lord stating that it is not for us to know the times and seasons in that ultimate future (Act's 1:7), to watch and pray, pay attention, certainly we will know when it draws near if it be in our life time.
It still needs to be said that there could be some serious ramifications from all this, something of a soberness seems missing from a great deal of these prognostications.
My prayers regardless.
| 2007/1/8 23:56||Profile|
Rahman 2007/1/8 18:32 writes
So as we've talked about previously the gauntlet has already been thrown down, all is written here on SI Forum, the line drawn in the sand back in 2006 - behind that now closed door ... In this new year of 2007, with a "new" door standing agape before us, there's nothing left for us to do or say on this subject, as the only thing left remaining is to WAIT ON GOD to prove us "live" or "memorex" ...
Rest in Him my brother, we're already here and don't have much longer to wait! ...
For Ironman this is certainly true. We are on a countdown to Dec 2007 as I remember; then we shall see whether or not he is a prophet.
| 2007/1/9 7:33||Profile|
the secular media is saying the same thing.
fox tv aint prophisying they are just discerning the times we live in!
| 2007/1/9 7:57||Profile|
the secular media is saying the same thing.
fox tv aint prophisying they are just discerning the times we live in!
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I don't know if anyone listens to Glenn Beck, but if you do, you would hear him talk about all kinds of things that he thinks is coming upon the Earth. And He's a Mormon!
I would be more inclined to believe him concerning coming calamities, because I guy like that can back up what he is saying with news facts. His program on radical Islam was amazing. It was all actual clips from Al Jazeera T.V.
I don't completely understand the purpose of a New Testament prophet, but something that T. Austin Sparks wrote helped me understand it a little better.
(paraphrase) He said if you look at the prophets of the OT, they were always pointing/ directing the people of God back to God's purpose and plan.
The purpose and plan of God has always been Christ. He is the fulfillment of all of the Law and the Prophets. If you look at the Prophets in the OT there is an ever increasing revelation of Jesus Christ. If you look at the first chapter of Hebrews it tells us that in times past God spoke to us by the Prophets, but now He speaks to us through His Son. The OT prophets message has now come. He has now been revealed to us.
If we consider John the Baptist the final OT prophet then we can see that he actually had the privilege of being the one to point Israel to the actual purpose and plan of God. "Behold the Lamb of God" Maybe that's why Jesus said
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...
I believe a true prophet is consumed with Jesus Christ. He/ she are not consumed with coming calamities, and as was stated, anyone can read the signs of the times and predict coming calamities.
But only those who know Jesus can reveal Jesus. In a sense, anyone who knows Christ...anyone who has experienced His Life, has the ability to be a prophet. Maybe that's why Jesus also said:
...notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
1 Peter says basically that the prophets dreamed of being able to do what we can do, or have what we have. Anyone that has been born again sees more of the purpose and plan of God than did any prophet in the OT. Amazing!
We have the ability to lead people to the purpose and plan of God...Jesus Christ!
| 2007/1/9 9:02|
That is just a very flat statement, I mean no other thing by it. The thing that I find a constant wonder is the never ending explaining and defending that is being done. Where is the self-abasing, couldn't care less attitude of the past prophets, not that they couldn't care less about the burden and the word and the fear and trembling, all those things, but I do mean for their selves?
This is the striking thing about the prophets. They never seemed to qualify anything they said. They just spoke as the Spirit gave utterance. They inquired into the Spirit that was in them what He testified- because sometimes they didn't understand what was being said- especially the full on implications. I have heard a few people 'prophecy' various disasters this year. We need not know much more than we already know. We have been warned enough in scripture to get our houses in order.
Reminds me of the rich man who lifted up his eyes in hell. The idea he had was- if something "SHOCKING" enough comes to my family they will turn to God in repentance. But Jesus said they have Moses and the prophets and if they won't believe the word of God- they will not believe even if a person comes back from the dead. This is a sobering reality. The message I hear in from it is that the sensational will not move a hardened sinner if God's word won't. Not miracles and not anything else; not even a full-on resurrection from the dead. So prophecies of destruction may serve some for informational purposes- but I doubt that it will have much effect on turning folk to Christ as they already have more than sufficient light and they reject that.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2007/1/9 9:20||Profile|
I don't completely understand the purpose of a New Testament prophet,
We have discussed this at some length at different times but perhaps it doesn't hurt to say one or two things again. I don't think any folk today are claiming to be scripture-writing prophets of the Isaiah or Jeremiah kind; at least I hope not. There is a simple definition of a prophet is in the story of Samuel[color=0000ff](Formerly in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, he spoke thus: Come, let us go to the seer; for he who is now called a prophet was formerly called a seer.) (1Sam 9:9 NKJV)[/color]He was someone who 'saw' things that other people didn't see. His 'vision' was a God's eye-view of things. Because of that it might be past, present or future and was not necessarily predictive. It's interesting that the Jews placed the book of Joshua among their prophetic scriptures. It is a God's eye-view of history, not necessarily predictive but the way God sees things.
I love this little example of a prophet [color=0000ff]And it came to pass, when the children of Israel cried out to the LORD because of the Midianites, that the LORD sent a prophet to the children of Israel, who said to them, Thus says the LORD God of Israel: I brought you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of bondage; and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of all who oppressed you, and drove them out before you and gave you their land. Also I said to you, I am the LORD your God; do not fear the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But you have not obeyed My voice.
(Judg 6:7-10 NKJV)[/color] This man has 'insight' from God and delivers it with conviction as 'thus says the LORD'. This man is claiming that God is speaking through him.
In the NT period there are references to itinerant prophets, the best known being Agabus: [color=0000ff]And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. (Acts 11:27-28 NKJV)
Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. When he had come to us, he took Pauls belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus says the Holy Spirit, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. (Acts 21:8-11 NKJV)[/color]This is a useful reference in that it speaks of people who 'prophesy' and of one who is a 'prophet'. Not everyone who prophesied was a prophet, not everyone who preached the gospel was an evangelist. It seems that some became well known for their 'gift' to such an extent that the gift characterised the man and some became 'prophets'. As far as I know, no one in the NT received a prophetic commission of the kind we read about in Isaiah or Jeremiah. Their ministry proved them to be prophets not their claims. There is a sobering warning of folk who claim things that we find in the book of the Revelation;[color=0000ff]...And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; (Rev 2:2 NKJV)[/color]Very frequently the word is found in the plural [color=0000ff]Acts 11:27 (KJVS) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
Acts 13:1 (KJVS) Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain [u]prophets [/u]and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Acts 15:32 (KJVS) And Judas and Silas, being [u]prophets[/u] also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
1Cor. 12:28 (KJVS) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily [u]prophets[/u], thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor. 14:29 (KJVS) Let the [u]prophets[/u] speak two or three, and let the others judge.
Eph. 4:11 (KJVS) And he gave some, apostles; and some, [u]prophets[/u]; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [/color]... and it is interesting that when functioning in the local church Paul insists that their utterances should be assessed by their peers; 1Cor 14:29 It seems to me that we never find prophets working in independence or isolation; there is collective accountability.
It is important to distinguish between the occasional prophetic utterance in which [color=0000ff]...you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. (1Cor 14:31 NKJV)[/color] and the settled authority of a man identified as 'a prophet'.
Those referred to as 'prophets' in the NT are not wearing badges, they are identified as prophets because of their life and ministry. Words like 'apostle' and 'prophet' (and pastor!) were never used as titles or badges in the NT; they are simply descriptions of what they do. The modern phenomena of self-styled prophets is something quite different from the NT history. Such men usually claim to be 'prophets' to enhance their status and reception by others, rather than being called 'prophets' by others who have recognized a unique gifting in God.
As regards 'purpose'... they brought divine 'insight' into the gatherings of the saints.
| 2007/1/9 10:27||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
happy new year to you and i must say i was most blessed and encouraged by your post
God bless you in this new year!
| 2007/1/9 12:39||Profile|
and it is interesting that when functioning in the local church Paul insists that their utterances should be assessed by their peers; 1Cor 14:29 It seems to me that we never find prophets working in independence or isolation; there is collective accountability.
In general, what happens when there is no 'collective accountability' and one individual gets up and tells the whole people what God is setting as the direction of the church without accountability or discussion? Would this be a biblical practice or should the people be alarmed? In today's pastoral setting they are generally given almost absolute authority with a mandate not to touch them lest you "touch the Lord's anointed." Is this practice biblical?
Robert Wurtz II
| 2007/1/9 13:06||Profile|